What are the main differences between Africans & Indians who came to the Caribbean?

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
What are the main differences between Africans & Indians who came to the Caribbean?

I believe when we examine this question properly we will clearly understand why one group who came to the Caribbean much later (between 1845 and early 1900’s) generally remains more united and has progressed much more economically as a group than the other group who came centuries earlier starting from the 1500’s until the slave trade was abolished in 1833.

I think the most important difference is that the East Indians who came mostly to the Caribbean as indenture workers came here WILLINGLY and with their religion, culture, ancestral names and language still intact.
They were generally viewed as the lower castes back in India and coming to the Caribbean to work was a chance for them to better their lives economically and otherwise.

The West Africans who came to the Caribbean on the other hand DID NOT COME WILLINGLY, came under brutal conditions and had their religion, culture, ancestral names and language forcefully stripped from them.

I think until we start addressing what the Africans who were brought to the Caribbean and so-called New World were stripped of and try to put measures in place for us to regain what we were stripped of which can also help to unite us again as one people, we will not see our people progressing as one economic force like some of the other racial groups who came to the Caribbean and so-called New World have been able to do.

Who agrees or disagrees with this assessment?

Sometimes the solution is so simple and obvious that we don't see the elephant in the room.
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
This topic will only be a dead horse when Africans in the Caribbean and so-called New World wake up and stop allowing the small islands or countries where they were born from blinding them to the reality that we all originally came from one place/region and need to unite like the other groups in order to become more powerful economically wherever we now reside.

We will never become an economic force and be respected as a group again until we seriously start putting measures in place to regain what we were strategically stripped of by the Europeans.

Now that we are free so-called "independent" countries with mostly our own people in charge we need to start reclaiming what we were stripped of or we will forever remain at the bottom economically as a group in which ever countries we now reside in the so-called New World.

UNITY is the key and this island mentality most of us here seem to be suffering from is a major tool that has been used to keep us mentally enslaved and divided.
 

Oneshot

where de crix
This topic will only be a dead horse when Africans in the Caribbean and so-called New World wake up and stop allowing the small islands or countries where they were born from blinding them to the reality that we all originally came from one place/region and need to unite like the other groups in order to become more powerful economically wherever we now reside.

We will never become an economic force and be respected as a group again until we seriously start putting measures in place to regain what we were strategically stripped of by the Europeans.

Now that we are free so-called "independent" countries with mostly our people in charge we need to start addressing what we were stripped of or we will forever remain at the bottom economically as a group in which ever countries we now reside in the so-called New World.

UNITY is the key and this island mentality most of us here seem to be suffering from is a major tool that has been used to keep us mentally enslaved and divided.
but we did not come from the same place.

go to the museum in the docklands, and you will see all the various countries africans were captured from. Dominica came from two (many three ) areas. One set from West Africa, another around Congo area.
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
but we did not come from the same place.

go to the museum in the docklands, and you will see all the various countries africans were captured from. Dominica came from two (many three ) areas. One set from West Africa, another around Congo area.
We came from the same region/continent. You need to stop thinking in a colonially brainwashed manner.
Who do you think divided up Africa into these different countries that you are referring me to?
Not the same Europeans who also enslaved our ancestors and still have most of us in mental slavery despite the abolition of shackled slavery in the 1800’s?

Point is we need to realize why the other groups are progressing economically wherever they settle on the planet while those of African descent always end up at the bottom of the economic barrel.

We have been culturally stripped and mentally damaged and deliberately disconnected from our original religion, culture, names and languages etc so that we will eternally remain Negroes.

It is now time for us to unite and put measures in place to repair the damage that has been done to us or we will forever remain negroes and at the bottom economically as a group and at the mercy of other groups for jobs, education, food, health, etc.
 

Oneshot

where de crix
We came from the same region/continent. You need to stop thinking in a colonially brainwashed manner.
Who do you think divided up Africa into these different countries that you are referring me to?
Not the same Europeans who also enslaved our ancestors and still have most of us in mental slavery despite the abolition of shackled slavery in the 1800’s?

Point is we need to realize why the other groups are progressing economically wherever they settle on the planet while those of African descent always end up at the bottom of the economical barrel.

We have been culturally stripped and mentally damaged and deliberately disconnected from our original culture, names and languages etc so that we will eternally remain Negroes.

It is now time for us to unite and put measures in place to repair the damage that has been done to us or we will forever remain negroes and at the bottom economically as a group and at the mercy of other groups for jobs, education, food, health, etc.
because i used the word country, you overlooked the example of Dominica, two peoples from two different civilisations, what history do we claim.
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
because i used the word country, you overlooked the example of Dominica, two peoples from two different civilisations, what history do we claim.
You claim both! They are both still African civilizations aren't they?

Ask yourself this. Do all Europeans speak the same language and have exactly the same culture?
But do they still generally work together to economically rule the planet recognizing that they are all ultimately from the same racial group?

Again who do you think were the ones who carved up Africa for their whole divide and rule gain?
Who do you think engineered the break-up of the West Indies Federation using Jamaica as the main pawn?
And while they were busy scheming to break us up, they also got the idea to form the European Union.
Do you see the big picture now?

If you still don't then I will just have to sadly class you as one of those negroes we can't save regardless of how hard we try.
 

bktrini305

Registered User
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bktrini305

Registered User
found this. I haven't watched it yet

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Vye Negre

New member
I hate to admit it... but I agree with Pro. We are not in a position to segregate ourselves from each other. Where we cam from originally is not relevant, what is relevant is that we put all differences aside and work together. If we dont, then we just continue to fail as we always have. We need econimic strength and that con only be acheived if all people of African descent support each other. We command a very large percentage of worldwide spending, but we systematically give all our resources away they wonder why other races are in a position to oppress us. We do it to ourselves will our small minded way of thinking.
 

Oneshot

where de crix
You claim both! They are both still African civilizations aren't they?

Ask yourself this. Do all Europeans speak the same language and have exactly the same culture?
But do they still generally work together to economically rule the planet recognizing that they are all ultimately from the same racial group?

Again who do you think were the ones who carved up Africa for their whole divide and rule gain?
Who do you think engineered the break-up of the West Indies Federation using Jamaica as the main pawn?
And while they were busy scheming to break us up, they also got the idea to form the European Union.
Do you see the big picture now?

If you still don't then I will just have to sadly class you as one of those negroes we can't save regardless of how hard we try.
i dont claim both. you dont have your facts correct. there is no single african ideaology, as there isnt a single european idealogy. look at european history again. the entire continent doesnt work together. even in the european union do you everthing ever country is equal? you live in england are poles, and eastern europeans treated the same as scots?
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
i dont claim both. you dont have your facts correct. there is no single african ideaology, as there isnt a single european idealogy. look at european history again. the entire continent doesnt work together. even in the european union do you everthing ever country is equal? you live in england are poles, and eastern europeans treated the same as scots?
I am suggesting that you do. That is the intelligent thing to do if you are descended from two different African civilizations.

Did I argue anywhere in my posts that there is a single African ideology or even a single European ideology?

What I pointed out is that Europeans generally work together in regards to trying to stay on top economically on the planet and also in regards to exploiting Negro run countries around the world.

Regards the entire European continent not working together that is only because Europeans are generally on top in ruling and exploiting the planet so they can afford a little disunity if they so wish.

If they were all being exploited by other races and were being kept at the bottom of the economic pile like most Negroes run countries, you can bet your last Euro they would all be united but the point is most of them work together economically which is why they formed the European Union around the same time that England coordinated the break-up of the West Indies Federation.

But as a blind Negro you will not get the point that what is required is Black/African unity for us to rise economically especially as we are being left by all other more united groups at the bottom of the economic pile because of our disunity.

But as I said not all Negros can be saved as they can't see the elephant in the room due to their mental conditioning.
 

Carib2

Registered User
Indians were enslaved too they were tricked to come to the Caribbean by the British. Its just that Indentured servants sounds better than saying ''slaves but not so harshly enslaved''

You claim both! They are both still African civilizations aren't they?

Ask yourself this. Do all Europeans speak the same language and have exactly the same culture?
But do they still generally work together to economically rule the planet recognizing that they are all ultimately from the same racial group?

Again who do you think were the ones who carved up Africa for their whole divide and rule gain?
Who do you think engineered the break-up of the West Indies Federation using Jamaica as the main pawn?
And while they were busy scheming to break us up, they also got the idea to form the European Union.

Do you see the big picture now?

If you still don't then I will just have to sadly class you as one of those negroes we can't save regardless of how hard we try.
Didn't know that...
 

Oneshot

where de crix
I am suggesting that you do. That is the intelligent thing to do if you are descended from two different African civilizations.

Did I argue anywhere in my posts that there is a single African ideology or even a single European ideology?

What I pointed out is that Europeans generally work together in regards to trying to stay on top economically on the planet and also in regards to exploiting Negro run countries around the world.

Regards the entire European continent not working together that is only because Europeans are generally on top in ruling and exploiting the planet so they can afford a little disunity if they so wish.

If they were all being exploited by other races and were being kept at the bottom of the economic pile like most Negroes run countries, you can bet your last Euro they would all be united but the point is most of them work together economically which is why they formed the European Union around the same time that England coordinated the break-up of the West Indies Federation.

But as a blind Negro you will not get the point that what is required is Black/African unity for us to rise economically especially as we are being left by all other more united groups at the bottom of the economic pile because of our disunity.

But as I said not all Negros can be saved as they can't see the elephant in the room due to their mental conditioning.
fella. the EU started from the fall of Nazi Germany. It was formed so that there would be no more wars on the European continent, nothing to do with England. This was for France and Germany, would no longer split the continent again.

This is the first time I heard of England hurting the Federation. What you are suggesting is This is countary to the usual English tactics of banding different cultures together and creating a single colony. For example Nigeria.
 

Carib2

Registered User
fella. the EU started from the fall of Nazi Germany. It was formed so that there would be no more wars on the European continent, nothing to do with England. This was for France and Germany, would no longer split the continent again.

This is the first time I heard of England hurting the Federation. What you are suggesting is This is countary to the usual English tactics of banding different cultures together and creating a single colony. For example Nigeria.
How do you know that? Its not possible for us to know that 100%
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
Indians were enslaved too they were tricked to come to the Caribbean by the British. Its just that Indentured servants sounds better than saying ''slaves but not so harshly enslaved''



Didn't know that...
Indians were not enslaved too my friend. They came to the Caribbean by choice as Indenture workers because most of them were from the lower castes and had little chance of rising economically if they had stayed in India because of the caste system.

Also Indians were not forcefully loaded onto ships wearing shackles like Africans were nor did millions of them die while making the journey due to harsh dehumanizing treatment as was systematically inflicted on Africans. Nor were Indians forced to stop practicing their culture, religion and from speaking their native language when they arrived in the Caribbean nor were they stripped of their ancestral names and given slave names chosen by their plantation masters with their last names being the last name of their plantation owner. Nor were many of their branded with hot iron on their backs to identify whose property they were in case they tried to escape and run away...

There is absolutely no comparison with what African slaves went through between the early 1500's and the abolition of slavery in 1833 (that is 300 years of dehumanization and working for nothing) to what the Indenture laborers went thru during the period they arrived in the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 (that's just over 70 years of paid work & saving to go back to India to hopefully live a much better life than you were able to live in India prior to making the trip to the Caribbean).

For starts when the East Indians arrived all the plantation cane fields etc and infra-structure of the Caribbean countries had already been created by the African slaves. Do you know how many African slaves died from snake bites etc clearing forest to set up the cane fields and to build the roads and other infra-structure you now see throughout the Caribbean and the New World?

The East Indian indenture workers who came to the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 had it relatively easy in comparison and they also did not have their religion, culture, ancestral names and language stripped from them.

It is not accurate or intelligent to try to compare the suffering and dehumanization that African slaves had to endure during slavery with what the East Indian indenture workers willingly chose to do and were paid wages for. African slaves were not paid; they were property, that's a big difference there. The wages that Indenture workers got was like a handsome wage compared to what they would have received in the low paid lower caste jobs they were restricted to if they had stayed in India. This is why most of the East Indians in the Caribbean are miles better off than their relatives they left behind in India and this is also why most of them chose not to make the trip back to India when they were offered land by the British as an incentive to stay after their Indenture-ship period had ended.

East Indian indenture workers had it relatively easy when compared to what Africans had to go thru during slavery. In addition after the Abolition of slavery there was a colonial policy throughout the Caribbean of not making it easy for ex-African slaves to acquire land so they can be kept working for the system as economic slaves. This economic system of slavery has been working very well for the Europeans since then till now.

It’s all about keeping ex-slaves still working for you in your businesses rather than for themselves in their own businesses while you get richer and continue to buy up most of the land and best sort after property in the country. You also allow the ex-slaves to believe they are free and independent and to celebrate their independence while still keeping them working for you in a profitable economic system of mental slavery.

Fast forward to today and East Indians in the Caribbean mostly see themselves as one people whether they are located in Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname, Jamaica, Grenada, wherever.
In contrast Africans living in the Caribbean generally see themselves more as Jamaicans, Dominicans, Bajans, Grenadians, Trinbagonians, St Lucians, Haitians, etc in front of seeing themselves as Africans and this is the main reason why we are being left economically behind by all the other groups. Divide & rule is working well!

Until we wake up and see that there is a divide and rule scheme that is being used on Africans throughout the world that is working to the advantage of all the other groups, we will not unite and will continue to be kept economically at the bottom and be viewed by other groups as mainly useful for exploiting and entertainment.
After you have exploited them and have gotten rich off of their dumb heads and hard work, you can allow them to entertain you, that is how Negroes are viewed by other groups.

Negroes were created by the Europeans through a systematic brainwash process to help keep Europeans at the top of the economical ladder and it is up to us to wake up to that reality and re-condition our thinking and behaviour to being more about loving self rather than loving other groups and helping to make and keep them rich. It’s time for us to start working towards making ourselves rich and self-sufficient and this is not just from an individual perspective but more from a group perspective.
 

bktrini305

Registered User
SP is basically right but a few things to point out just for the sake of accuracy.

Many if not most of the low caste Indians WERE tricked. As in the would hardly be made to understand the terms of the agreement they were signing up for, many of them had never seen paper much less would they know what a signature... signifies. Many of them were told that they would be taken to "an island" and work for a few years. often with the full intention of coming back.

The idea that the Indians coming to the Caribbean were solely or even mostly low caste is easily proven false as well by the last names found in the caribbean. Singh for instance is a warrior last name. Khan is literally royalty descended from Ghengis Khan's kids in fact. Basdeo, Ramdeo, Baldeo, are corruptions of Basdev, Ramdev, and Baldev which are last names associated with a pretty high up caste as well. Gossien and most of the Muslim names are high cast.

That is not to say that low cast and untouchables and so on didn't come as well and that the impetus to come would not have been greater for them, but the deception associated with the indentureship contracts could and probably was a a hole would have fooled higher caste people to come as well.
 

Socapro

Repect Our Soca Pioneers
SP is basically right but a few things to point out just for the sake of accuracy.

Many if not most of the low caste Indians WERE tricked. As in the would hardly be made to understand the terms of the agreement they were signing up for, many of them had never seen paper much less would they know what a signature... signifies. Many of them were told that they would be taken to "an island" and work for a few years. often with the full intention of coming back.

The idea that the Indians coming to the Caribbean were solely or even mostly low caste is easily proven false as well by the last names found in the caribbean. Singh for instance is a warrior last name. Khan is literally royalty descended from Ghengis Khan's kids in fact. Basdeo, Ramdeo, Baldeo, are corruptions of Basdev, Ramdev, and Baldev which are last names associated with a pretty high up caste as well. Gossien and most of the Muslim names are high cast.

That is not to say that low cast and untouchables and so on didn't come as well and that the impetus to come would not have been greater for them, but the deception associated with the indentureship contracts could and probably was a a hole would have fooled higher caste people to come as well.
Good post but I think based on your last paragraph the higher castes who came and were fooled by the contract would have been the minority or they were not very well educated higher castes to be so easily fooled.

As I understand it many of the higher castes were also shipowners and investors who did deals with the Europeans and profited from the arrangement.
 

bktrini305

Registered User
Putting people of different castes and from different parts of the Subcontinent who spoke different languages together in the same grueling work environment is similar to putting people from different parts of the Continent together in ultimately equal conditions. And i say equal because the exact same barracks were used, the same overseers were used and the same methods were used (there was never a cotton gin for cane, tobacco and rice) and rape was just as common.

What is different is that while most indentured servants did not survive indentureship or had their contracts extended to the end of their lives, if their children survived (most didn't) they'd likely have a shot at not being indentured. I say a shot because the debts tended to pass down.

Also the conditions on ships like the Faith Al Rozack were marginally better than those on the Amistad or the Brookes as evidenced by a 10% increase in survival rate.

Also, once the Indians really did own their land, in their ignorance they tended to kill each other over inheritance and so on. They used their ownership of the land to farm and be socially mobile. It was not until the 60s and 70s that they were given the opportunities to go to school like the rest of society had. T

After slavery, Africans tended to go for education as their method of social mobility likely because their cultures were denigrated at every turn as being savage. So for them, the way to move up was to be more European. Africans were taught to hate their culture and Indians were not until much later and in a much less complete way.

To this day Africans on average in Trinidad at least make more than do Indians - they occupy more of the professional jobs. But you see extreme outliers because the few Indians that own things, own a lot of businesses. But there are large groups of poor, middle class and rich Africans and Indians which was not the case before.
 
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