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Thread: What are the main differences between Africans & Indians who came to the Caribbean?

  1. #31
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    How could being offered land as an incentive to stay after indenture-ship was over not be good for those who were involved? And if things were so bad for them how come hardly any to none of them wanted to return to India after their indenture-ship period ended?

    As I have been saying in this thread from the beginning the East Indians had it relatively easy when compared to what the Africans had to go thru and it is an insult to the ancestors of Africans to even try to compare the oppression of the two groups when they came to the Caribbean. One group was forcibly taken to the Caribbean while the other came of their own free will.

    Guess who cleared most of the forest in Caroni and other areas created the roads and planted the canes fields cocoa fields etc and died in the thousands during that grueling process and were not paid for their joy either?

    And guess who came in a short 70 year indenture ship period and then ended up with most of the Caroni farm lands after being paid for their work.

    I would say that one group had it quite good which is why hardly any of them wanted to return to India and being at the bottom of the caste system once again.

    You're starting to ignore facts that I have already given and its getting late where I am. I'm interested in what else you have to say but resent having to repeat myself so I'm just going to say good night.
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  2. #32
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    I got something completely different from that video. To me it sounded like "make sure its black but nobody feels like it's black" in which case that is an example of the PNM not doing enough. And coming from a Chinese person solidifies me saying that this came from EVERYONE. Yes he is Chinese but had no problem making sure that the African is most represented in the flag.
    It seems that you and I are looking at totally different videos.
    Going by what Chang said he clearly said that those who commissioned him to design a national flag said they wanted some Black in the flag to reflect the MAJORITY population but they did not want the other races to have any reason to feel offended or excluded. This is why the Black stripe is in the middle of the flag and the reference to its colour is not to symbolize race but to symbolize unity and strength.

    This makes sense as being very sensitive and inclusive especially as many Black folks in T&T at the time were also promoting the unifying thinking between Africans and East Indians that we are all Black (or non-White) especially in the eyes of our ex-colonial rulers from whom we have gain our independence. Remember back then T&T had a majority African population yet Black in the flag is said to represent the dedication of the people joined together by one strong bond. It is the colour of strength, of unity of purpose, and of the wealth of the land. Now how much more unifying and inclusive can you try to get with a statement like that for what Black represents?

    Btw listen to this Calypso from Kitch made in the 1950's that promotes the unifying concept that if you are not White that you are Black as that is how White folks generally viewed folks from the Colonies who were not White. It was a big hit in T&T in the 1950's.

    Lord Kitchener - If You're Not White, You're Black (1950's)

    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    This I only knew on some levels but would love to know more about. do you have a cite or a book or something?
    I will try to refer you to a good link or book when I get the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    I was using the Jamaat as a parallel, not really accusing them of being at the heart of it.

    I'm trying to refer to a general sentiment and understanding that is based on the context of the time of independence. And though the second quote in this post mildly alters my opinion, I still say that the Afrocentric movement was a very particular portion of Anti Colonial thinking. Ghandi himself wasn't Pro African - he even went to south africa and did little for the africans there.

    It makes every bit of sense that a government rules by Pan Africanists would not have done everything necessary for the Indian to feel included. And you telling me that indians didn't have faith in an African government makes me think even more now that the reverse would also have been true.
    The fact of the matter is that the PNM did everything in its power to attract and empower East Indians in T&T to join their party and did much more for East Indians than they did for Africans right from the very start of their time in power.

    All that including rewarding East Indians with land that they did not deserve and they still kept voting in mass for the DLP and its other incarnations.

    The reality today in 2015 is that we have had an East Indian led government in power since 2010 and also between 1995-2001 and on both occasions African Trinis have been systematically victimized and replaced in all the highest government jobs while that was never systematically the case in reverse when the African led PNM party was in power. As I said PNM always did its best to look after East Indians in T&T many times to the unfair disadvantage of Africans.

    Based on record it seems that the only political party who has shown a mature record of running the country fairly for everyone is the PNM and it could be argued that they did not do enough for Africans and did more for East Indians just to prove to the East Indians population that they are not racist.
    It seems that the East Indians in T&T have been playing a very insincere victim game where they benefit unfairly under the PNM and benefit even more extremely and unfairly under the UNC.
    Whichever way it is the East Indians have been winning and the Africans have been losing.

    I believe the African population in T&T has finally woken up to the political game they have been losing over the years and will demand fairer treatment from the PNM for their communities when PNM gets back into power. Many African Trinis voted for the current Indian led UNC/PPG and are living to regret it and can't wait for the next general elections to correct their big mistake.
    However the UNC has a devious plan in place which includes padding the marginal seats with East Indian voters and also the Run-off elections if no political party wins by more than 50% of the vote so getting rid of the current racist T&T government will need all opposition forces with the future of the country at heart to unite.

    If the current UNC/PP government gets back into office, T&T will become another Guyana or worse by the end of their next 5 year term with not much left for Africans. And this will be after Africans built most of the country's infra-structure from scratch from when the Europeans landed and brought the first African slaves to T&T in the 1500's to when it became an Independent nation in 1962. It will be a very sad future for T&T if the current government is able to fulfill its long term goal of marginalizing Africans and turning them into 5th class citizens (equivalent to the lowest castes back in India) in a country that mainly Africans built.
    Africans in T&T better wake up before it is too late for them.
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  3. #33
    where de crix Oneshot's Avatar Oneshot is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carib2 View Post
    How do you know that? Its not possible for us to know that 100%
    fella how can you live in a country and kno its history?

  4. #34
    Players Play I Coach Swollen's Avatar Swollen is offline
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    God Loves America

    I does wonder about the infrastructure building by slaves was it the first slaves that did the clearings and shit...

  5. #35
    Earth Angel dollbabi's Avatar dollbabi is offline
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    Please focus on the African experience and the ways to move ahead. Stop attempting to rewrite and minimize the Indian experience to elevate your own. Not a good look.

  6. #36
    Registered User TheEducator's Avatar TheEducator is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    Indians were not enslaved too my friend. They came to the Caribbean by choice as Indenture workers because most of them were from the lower castes and had little chance of rising economically if they had stayed in India because of the caste system.

    Also Indians were not forcefully loaded onto ships wearing shackles like Africans were nor did millions of them die while making the journey due to harsh dehumanizing treatment as was systematically inflicted on Africans. Nor were Indians forced to stop practicing their culture, religion and from speaking their native language when they arrived in the Caribbean nor were they stripped of their ancestral names and given slave names chosen by their plantation masters with their last names being the last name of their plantation owner. Nor were many of their branded with hot iron on their backs to identify whose property they were in case they tried to escape and run away...

    There is absolutely no comparison with what African slaves went through between the early 1500's and the abolition of slavery in 1833 (that is 300 years of dehumanization and working for nothing) to what the Indenture laborers went thru during the period they arrived in the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 (that's just over 70 years of paid work & saving to go back to India to hopefully live a much better life than you were able to live in India prior to making the trip to the Caribbean).

    For starts when the East Indians arrived all the plantation cane fields etc and infra-structure of the Caribbean countries had already been created by the African slaves. Do you know how many African slaves died from snake bites etc clearing forest to set up the cane fields and to build the roads and other infra-structure you now see throughout the Caribbean and the New World?

    The East Indian indenture workers who came to the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 had it relatively easy in comparison and they also did not have their religion, culture, ancestral names and language stripped from them.

    It is not accurate or intelligent to try to compare the suffering and dehumanization that African slaves had to endure during slavery with what the East Indian indenture workers willingly chose to do and were paid wages for. African slaves were not paid; they were property, that's a big difference there. The wages that Indenture workers got was like a handsome wage compared to what they would have received in the low paid lower caste jobs they were restricted to if they had stayed in India. This is why most of the East Indians in the Caribbean are miles better off than their relatives they left behind in India and this is also why most of them chose not to make the trip back to India when they were offered land by the British as an incentive to stay after their Indenture-ship period had ended.

    East Indian indenture workers had it relatively easy when compared to what Africans had to go thru during slavery. In addition after the Abolition of slavery there was a colonial policy throughout the Caribbean of not making it easy for ex-African slaves to acquire land so they can be kept working for the system as economic slaves. This economic system of slavery has been working very well for the Europeans since then till now.

    Itís all about keeping ex-slaves still working for you in your businesses rather than for themselves in their own businesses while you get richer and continue to buy up most of the land and best sort after property in the country. You also allow the ex-slaves to believe they are free and independent and to celebrate their independence while still keeping them working for you in a profitable economic system of mental slavery.

    Fast forward to today and East Indians in the Caribbean mostly see themselves as one people whether they are located in Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname, Jamaica, Grenada, wherever.
    In contrast Africans living in the Caribbean generally see themselves more as Jamaicans, Dominicans, Bajans, Grenadians, Trinbagonians, St Lucians, Haitians, etc in front of seeing themselves as Africans and this is the main reason why we are being left economically behind by all the other groups. Divide & rule is working well!

    Until we wake up and see that there is a divide and rule scheme that is being used on Africans throughout the world that is working to the advantage of all the other groups, we will not unite and will continue to be kept economically at the bottom and be viewed by other groups as mainly useful for exploiting and entertainment.
    After you have exploited them and have gotten rich off of their dumb heads and hard work, you can allow them to entertain you, that is how Negroes are viewed by other groups.

    Negroes were created by the Europeans through a systematic brainwash process to help keep Europeans at the top of the economical ladder and it is up to us to wake up to that reality and re-condition our thinking and behaviour to being more about loving self rather than loving other groups and helping to make and keep them rich. Itís time for us to start working towards making ourselves rich and self-sufficient and this is not just from an individual perspective but more from a group perspective.
    Not exactly true. Watch this
    bktrini305 likes this.

  7. #37
    par wid devil n lock hell Trini Juan is offline
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    I think u need to find a site with like minds socapro
    Mostly everybody on this site is here for kicks
    You know the type that celebrates death etc
    Such fun n jusss nettery
    See they went n got your full name etc n all laughing
    Know where u at n who you amongst

  8. #38
    Registered User sankofaa's Avatar sankofaa is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trini Juan View Post
    I think u need to find a site with like minds socapro
    Mostly everybody on this site is here for kicks
    You know the type that celebrates death etc
    Such fun n jusss nettery
    See they went n got your full name etc n all laughing
    Know where u at n who you amongst
    so you don't think i'm serious as a poster?

  9. #39
    par wid devil n lock hell Trini Juan is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by sankofaa View Post
    so you don't think i'm serious as a poster?
    Haven't u said before basically none of this is serious n u only having fun
    For example u always talking bout swimmers
    Doubt u dislike swimmers
    As MANY u like fun n talking shit
    That's way different from being an activist or political person or even an intellectual

    Hence u n many others care little bout his question
    Clown him n argue n throw off tred

    Hence he should know his zone

  10. #40
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trini Juan View Post
    I think u need to find a site with like minds socapro
    Mostly everybody on this site is here for kicks
    You know the type that celebrates death etc
    Such fun n jusss nettery
    See they went n got your full name etc n all laughing
    Know where u at n who you amongst
    I am well known in London as a DJ and event promoter in soca and other circles but only family and a few classy friends know where I live and who I hang out with and things will remain that way.

    The battyman antics by Swagger of starting a thread with my real name does not bother me in the least. In fact I was the one who provided a link to my facebook page from my Imix profile which has been there ever since I started posting regularly here so if I was trying to hide something I wouldn't have provided a link.

    I don't really spend much time on facebook these days apart from using it to promote events I am involved in.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  11. #41
    Registered User sankofaa's Avatar sankofaa is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trini Juan View Post
    Haven't u said before basically none of this is serious n u only having fun
    For example u always talking bout swimmers
    Doubt u dislike swimmers
    As MANY u like fun n talking shit
    That's way different from being an activist or political person or even an intellectual

    Hence u n many others care little bout his question
    Clown him n argue n throw off tred

    Hence he should know his zone
    do the research fam, i'm a serious poster on social issues.

  12. #42
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by dollbabi View Post
    Please focus on the African experience and the ways to move ahead. Stop attempting to rewrite and minimize the Indian experience to elevate your own. Not a good look.
    Darling I am not your husband so don't try to order me around!

    Btw how have I tried to minimize the Indian experience? By pointing out the facts?
    Where was I inaccurate?
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  13. #43
    par wid devil n lock hell Trini Juan is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    I am well known in London as a DJ and event promoter in soca and other circles but only family and a few classy friends know where I live and who I hang out with and things will remain that way.

    The battyman antics by Swagger of starting a thread with my real name does not bother me in the least. In fact I was the one who provided a link to my facebook page from my Imix profile which has been there ever since I started posting regularly here so if I was trying to hide something I wouldn't do that.
    I don't really spend much time on facebook these days apart from using it to promote events I am involved in.
    One of my issues is a group of jokers always needing a jester
    For they can hide in the group n have like mind
    Pick on dragon tell Poca she a sweet princess etc
    It's always a jeering n pile on
    Silly
    Yet that's the just net point

  14. #44
    par wid devil n lock hell Trini Juan is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by sankofaa View Post
    do the research fam, i'm a serious poster on social issues.
    Dude y'all transforming y'all mentalities in extreme fashion by the hour
    Every new event is forcing many to think deeper
    Changes in race feelings
    Life
    Class
    And many more

    I encourage it
    More progress n civility
    Cause decent people are n been segregating from Dutty bundles

  15. #45
    Earth Angel dollbabi's Avatar dollbabi is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    Darling I am not your husband so don't try to order me around!

    Btw how have I tried to minimize the Indian experience? By pointing out the facts?
    Where was I inaccurate?
    Thats right. You're not my husband so who cares if you're butt hurt about some orders. You only make those assumptions because you're used to being someone's b....

    You're already being told about your inaccuracies. Get it together.

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