Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 109
Like Tree19Likes

Thread: What are the main differences between Africans & Indians who came to the Caribbean?

  1. #16
    Registered User Carib2 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,647
    Credits
    41,453,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneshot View Post
    fella. the EU started from the fall of Nazi Germany. It was formed so that there would be no more wars on the European continent, nothing to do with England. This was for France and Germany, would no longer split the continent again.

    This is the first time I heard of England hurting the Federation. What you are suggesting is This is countary to the usual English tactics of banding different cultures together and creating a single colony. For example Nigeria.
    How do you know that? Its not possible for us to know that 100%

  2. #17
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Carib2 View Post
    Indians were enslaved too they were tricked to come to the Caribbean by the British. Its just that Indentured servants sounds better than saying ''slaves but not so harshly enslaved''



    Didn't know that...
    Indians were not enslaved too my friend. They came to the Caribbean by choice as Indenture workers because most of them were from the lower castes and had little chance of rising economically if they had stayed in India because of the caste system.

    Also Indians were not forcefully loaded onto ships wearing shackles like Africans were nor did millions of them die while making the journey due to harsh dehumanizing treatment as was systematically inflicted on Africans. Nor were Indians forced to stop practicing their culture, religion and from speaking their native language when they arrived in the Caribbean nor were they stripped of their ancestral names and given slave names chosen by their plantation masters with their last names being the last name of their plantation owner. Nor were many of their branded with hot iron on their backs to identify whose property they were in case they tried to escape and run away...

    There is absolutely no comparison with what African slaves went through between the early 1500's and the abolition of slavery in 1833 (that is 300 years of dehumanization and working for nothing) to what the Indenture laborers went thru during the period they arrived in the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 (that's just over 70 years of paid work & saving to go back to India to hopefully live a much better life than you were able to live in India prior to making the trip to the Caribbean).

    For starts when the East Indians arrived all the plantation cane fields etc and infra-structure of the Caribbean countries had already been created by the African slaves. Do you know how many African slaves died from snake bites etc clearing forest to set up the cane fields and to build the roads and other infra-structure you now see throughout the Caribbean and the New World?

    The East Indian indenture workers who came to the Caribbean between 1845 and 1917 had it relatively easy in comparison and they also did not have their religion, culture, ancestral names and language stripped from them.

    It is not accurate or intelligent to try to compare the suffering and dehumanization that African slaves had to endure during slavery with what the East Indian indenture workers willingly chose to do and were paid wages for. African slaves were not paid; they were property, that's a big difference there. The wages that Indenture workers got was like a handsome wage compared to what they would have received in the low paid lower caste jobs they were restricted to if they had stayed in India. This is why most of the East Indians in the Caribbean are miles better off than their relatives they left behind in India and this is also why most of them chose not to make the trip back to India when they were offered land by the British as an incentive to stay after their Indenture-ship period had ended.

    East Indian indenture workers had it relatively easy when compared to what Africans had to go thru during slavery. In addition after the Abolition of slavery there was a colonial policy throughout the Caribbean of not making it easy for ex-African slaves to acquire land so they can be kept working for the system as economic slaves. This economic system of slavery has been working very well for the Europeans since then till now.

    It’s all about keeping ex-slaves still working for you in your businesses rather than for themselves in their own businesses while you get richer and continue to buy up most of the land and best sort after property in the country. You also allow the ex-slaves to believe they are free and independent and to celebrate their independence while still keeping them working for you in a profitable economic system of mental slavery.

    Fast forward to today and East Indians in the Caribbean mostly see themselves as one people whether they are located in Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname, Jamaica, Grenada, wherever.
    In contrast Africans living in the Caribbean generally see themselves more as Jamaicans, Dominicans, Bajans, Grenadians, Trinbagonians, St Lucians, Haitians, etc in front of seeing themselves as Africans and this is the main reason why we are being left economically behind by all the other groups. Divide & rule is working well!

    Until we wake up and see that there is a divide and rule scheme that is being used on Africans throughout the world that is working to the advantage of all the other groups, we will not unite and will continue to be kept economically at the bottom and be viewed by other groups as mainly useful for exploiting and entertainment.
    After you have exploited them and have gotten rich off of their dumb heads and hard work, you can allow them to entertain you, that is how Negroes are viewed by other groups.

    Negroes were created by the Europeans through a systematic brainwash process to help keep Europeans at the top of the economical ladder and it is up to us to wake up to that reality and re-condition our thinking and behaviour to being more about loving self rather than loving other groups and helping to make and keep them rich. It’s time for us to start working towards making ourselves rich and self-sufficient and this is not just from an individual perspective but more from a group perspective.
    Lappo and humble1 like this.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  3. #18
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    SP is basically right but a few things to point out just for the sake of accuracy.

    Many if not most of the low caste Indians WERE tricked. As in the would hardly be made to understand the terms of the agreement they were signing up for, many of them had never seen paper much less would they know what a signature... signifies. Many of them were told that they would be taken to "an island" and work for a few years. often with the full intention of coming back.

    The idea that the Indians coming to the Caribbean were solely or even mostly low caste is easily proven false as well by the last names found in the caribbean. Singh for instance is a warrior last name. Khan is literally royalty descended from Ghengis Khan's kids in fact. Basdeo, Ramdeo, Baldeo, are corruptions of Basdev, Ramdev, and Baldev which are last names associated with a pretty high up caste as well. Gossien and most of the Muslim names are high cast.

    That is not to say that low cast and untouchables and so on didn't come as well and that the impetus to come would not have been greater for them, but the deception associated with the indentureship contracts could and probably was a a hole would have fooled higher caste people to come as well.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  4. #19
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    SP is basically right but a few things to point out just for the sake of accuracy.

    Many if not most of the low caste Indians WERE tricked. As in the would hardly be made to understand the terms of the agreement they were signing up for, many of them had never seen paper much less would they know what a signature... signifies. Many of them were told that they would be taken to "an island" and work for a few years. often with the full intention of coming back.

    The idea that the Indians coming to the Caribbean were solely or even mostly low caste is easily proven false as well by the last names found in the caribbean. Singh for instance is a warrior last name. Khan is literally royalty descended from Ghengis Khan's kids in fact. Basdeo, Ramdeo, Baldeo, are corruptions of Basdev, Ramdev, and Baldev which are last names associated with a pretty high up caste as well. Gossien and most of the Muslim names are high cast.

    That is not to say that low cast and untouchables and so on didn't come as well and that the impetus to come would not have been greater for them, but the deception associated with the indentureship contracts could and probably was a a hole would have fooled higher caste people to come as well.
    Good post but I think based on your last paragraph the higher castes who came and were fooled by the contract would have been the minority or they were not very well educated higher castes to be so easily fooled.

    As I understand it many of the higher castes were also shipowners and investors who did deals with the Europeans and profited from the arrangement.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  5. #20
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    Putting people of different castes and from different parts of the Subcontinent who spoke different languages together in the same grueling work environment is similar to putting people from different parts of the Continent together in ultimately equal conditions. And i say equal because the exact same barracks were used, the same overseers were used and the same methods were used (there was never a cotton gin for cane, tobacco and rice) and rape was just as common.

    What is different is that while most indentured servants did not survive indentureship or had their contracts extended to the end of their lives, if their children survived (most didn't) they'd likely have a shot at not being indentured. I say a shot because the debts tended to pass down.

    Also the conditions on ships like the Faith Al Rozack were marginally better than those on the Amistad or the Brookes as evidenced by a 10% increase in survival rate.

    Also, once the Indians really did own their land, in their ignorance they tended to kill each other over inheritance and so on. They used their ownership of the land to farm and be socially mobile. It was not until the 60s and 70s that they were given the opportunities to go to school like the rest of society had. T

    After slavery, Africans tended to go for education as their method of social mobility likely because their cultures were denigrated at every turn as being savage. So for them, the way to move up was to be more European. Africans were taught to hate their culture and Indians were not until much later and in a much less complete way.

    To this day Africans on average in Trinidad at least make more than do Indians - they occupy more of the professional jobs. But you see extreme outliers because the few Indians that own things, own a lot of businesses. But there are large groups of poor, middle class and rich Africans and Indians which was not the case before.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  6. #21
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    Putting people of different castes and from different parts of the Subcontinent who spoke different languages together in the same grueling work environment is similar to putting people from different parts of the Continent together in ultimately equal conditions. And i say equal because the exact same barracks were used, the same overseers were used and the same methods were used (there was never a cotton gin for cane, tobacco and rice) and rape was just as common.

    What is different is that while most indentured servants did not survive indentureship or had their contracts extended to the end of their lives, if their children survived (most didn't) they'd likely have a shot at not being indentured. I say a shot because the debts tended to pass down.

    Also the conditions on ships like the Faith Al Rozack were marginally better than those on the Amistad or the Brookes as evidenced by a 10% increase in survival rate.

    Also, once the Indians really did own their land, in their ignorance they tended to kill each other over inheritance and so on. They used their ownership of the land to farm and be socially mobile. It was not until the 60s and 70s that they were given the opportunities to go to school like the rest of society had. T

    After slavery, Africans tended to go for education as their method of social mobility likely because their cultures were denigrated at every turn as being savage. So for them, the way to move up was to be more European. Africans were taught to hate their culture and Indians were not until much later and in a much less complete way.

    To this day Africans on average in Trinidad at least make more than do Indians - they occupy more of the professional jobs. But you see extreme outliers because the few Indians that own things, own a lot of businesses. But there are large groups of poor, middle class and rich Africans and Indians which was not the case before.
    That is something that the Indo-Trinis should be eternally grateful to Eric Williams and the PNM for. They made it possible for everyone in T&T to have a decent education and offered free scholarships to University for those who excelled.

    I think Africans in T&T got the raw end of the stick especially in regards to the giving out of land. Most of the farming land that the Indians inherited were cleared and established by Africans but yet the East Indians got offered most of the land as an incentive to stay after their indenture-ship was over.

    I believe under the current government most of the managerial positions in government jobs have now gone to East Indians so I don't think that Africans are generally earning more money in professional jobs than East Indians now are in T&T. That is a thing of the past.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  7. #22
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    That is something that the Indo-Trinis should be eternally grateful to Eric Williams and the PNM for. They made it possible for everyone in T&T to have a descent education and offered free scholarships to University for those who excelled.

    I think Africans in T&T got the raw end of the stick especially in regards to the giving out of land. Most of the farming land that the Indians inherited were cleared and established by Africans but yet the East Indians got offered most of the land as an incentive to stay after their indenture-ship was over.
    Yes absolutely and Indians are constantly playing victim where they need not, particularly in politics. Africans in the PNM fkkd it up though. For Indo-Muslims, being higher caste and identifying more, with western culture were most of the first Indians to make it out of the cane field. And were ready to assume places in the PNM. It was racist rhetoric and non-inclusive Afrocentrism that lead them out of the PNM. The Jamaat Al Muslimeen's fockery created that of the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha in my opinion.

    But yes africans got the raw end of the stick in terms of their culture and land and how they're perceived around the world and a lot of other things. We haven't had an Indian Miss Universe contestant yet but as soon as more Indians enter industries like fashion (idustries not likely to direct their family's collective success) every single person who wins will be light skinned, have looooooooong ########################rie hair and a set of henna all over she body. Not even a Madras/Tamil girl. A fair skinned Muslim.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  8. #23
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    Yes absolutely and Indians are constantly playing victim where they need not, particularly in politics. Africans in the PNM fkkd it up though. For Indo-Muslims, being higher caste and identifying more, with western culture were most of the first Indians to make it out of the cane field. And were ready to assume places in the PNM. It was racist rhetoric and non-inclusive Afrocentrism that lead them out of the PNM. The Jamaat Al Muslimeen's fockery created that of the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha in my opinion.
    I don't agree please qualify your argument as the PNM is still the best and least biased political party that T&T has to offer. If you know the history of the PNM you will know that they courted and welcomed all races into the PNM from the very beginning of the PNM's existence in the 1950's but the East Indians in T&T have always resisted joining/supporting the PNM and have been loyal to the DLP and its descendent parties which in its latest incarnation is the UNC.

    The PNM actually even unfairly gave out land to East Indians when Caroni was closed down hoping to get mass East Indian support and they took the land and still did not vote PNM.

    And the Jamaat Al Muslimeen's did not create the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha. Do your research! The Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha was first created in 1881, but only became a religious force when they managed to unite most of the Hindu groups in T&T under one umbrella in 1952 when the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha, was officially incorporated. Go here for more info: Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    But yes africans got the raw end of the stick in terms of their culture and land and how they're perceived around the world and a lot of other things. We haven't had an Indian Miss Universe contestant yet but as soon as more Indians enter industries like fashion (idustries not likely to direct their family's collective success) every single person who wins will be light skinned, have looooooooong ########################rie hair and a set of henna all over she body. Not even a Madras/Tamil girl. A fair skinned Muslim.
    And I am not too sure about T&T not having an Indian representative for Miss Universe yet as I am sure I have seen a few Indian looking ones representing us in the past. T&T has been a very fair country in regards to those who have represented us on the world stage for Miss World and Miss Universe contests over the years.

    A more urgent concern is that we have over 450,000 East Indians in T&T and hardly any help to put us on the map in sports and yet we have some of the best sporting facilities in the Caribbean. Something is wrong there.

    From a cultural perspective even Chutney-Soca which is much more popular than Chutney music within the East Indian communities in T&T these days was started by an African, Lord Shorty. I am still waiting to see how long it will take the East Indian community in T&T to officially recognise Ras Shorty-I with an award to his family for his immense contribution to the development of East Indian music culture in T&T.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  9. #24
    Boonoonoonoos jamaicangirl's Avatar jamaicangirl is offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    6,819
    Credits
    11,501,894
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    SP is basically right but a few things to point out just for the sake of accuracy.

    Many if not most of the low caste Indians WERE tricked. As in the would hardly be made to understand the terms of the agreement they were signing up for, many of them had never seen paper much less would they know what a signature... signifies. Many of them were told that they would be taken to "an island" and work for a few years. often with the full intention of coming back.

    The idea that the Indians coming to the Caribbean were solely or even mostly low caste is easily proven false as well by the last names found in the caribbean. Singh for instance is a warrior last name. Khan is literally royalty descended from Ghengis Khan's kids in fact. Basdeo, Ramdeo, Baldeo, are corruptions of Basdev, Ramdev, and Baldev which are last names associated with a pretty high up caste as well. Gossien and most of the Muslim names are high cast.

    That is not to say that low cast and untouchables and so on didn't come as well and that the impetus to come would not have been greater for them, but the deception associated with the indentureship contracts could and probably was a a hole would have fooled higher caste people to come as well.
    The caste names are ancestral names. Just because someone has that name, does not mean that they were royal or a warrior, etc. The people who migrated out of India were poor regardless of their castes.

    In the USA, there are wealthy Indians from the lower castes who are working in fields that are outside of the their traditional domains. There are also Brahmins in India who are impoverished.

    Caste is not relevant in this conversation. The Indians who came were POOR.
    Socapro likes this.

  10. #25
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by jamaicangirl View Post
    The caste names are ancestral names. Just because someone has that name, does not mean that they were royal or a warrior, etc. The people who migrated out of India were poor regardless of their castes.

    In the USA, there are wealthy Indians from the lower castes who are working in fields that are outside of the their traditional domains. There are also Brahmins in India who are impoverished.

    Caste is not relevant in this conversation. The Indians who came were POOR.


    And they came willingly and not by force as the Africans who came centuries before them!
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  11. #26
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    It was racist rhetoric and non-inclusive Afrocentrism that lead them out of the PNM. The Jamaat Al Muslimeen's fockery created that of the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    I don't agree please qualify your argument as the PNM is still the best and least biased political party that T&T has to offer. If you know the history of the PNM you will know that they courted and welcomed all races into the PNM from the very beginning of the PNM's existence in the 1950's but the East Indians in T&T have always resisted joining/supporting the PNM and have been loyal to the DLP and its descendent parties which in its latest incarnation is the UNC.

    The PNM actually even unfairly gave out land to East Indians when Caroni was closed down hoping to get mass East Indian support and they took the land and still did not vote PNM.

    And the Jamaat Al Muslimeen's did not create the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha. Do your research! The Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha was first created in 1881, but only became a religious force when they managed to unite most of the Hindu groups in T&T under one umbrella in 1952 when the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha, was officially incorporated. Go here for more info: Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    let me clarify. What I said was that it was the "Jamaat's Fockery" (meaning their racism and bias and so on) that created a reaction from the SDMS that is lasting and disgusting. People like Sat would not be so powerful for saying the things they say if it weren't for the rejection of non African Culture in the formation of the nation. This was done by everyone including the designer of flag, Carlisle Chang.


    The power of the anti african hindu in my opinion (bearing in mind i am non-native) is a reaction to exclusionary rhetoric made by the PNM as a whole (not necessarily Eric Williams although he as a global African leader could be perhaps be scapegoated with powerful argument)

    On the one hand, Africanity was exactly what many black nations needed at the time of independence but on the other Trinidad's PNM didn't do enough to make everyone feel included. And the evidence for that is that not everyone felt included.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  12. #27
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    Quote Originally Posted by jamaicangirl View Post
    The caste names are ancestral names. Just because someone has that name, does not mean that they were royal or a warrior, etc. The people who migrated out of India were poor regardless of their castes.

    In the USA, there are wealthy Indians from the lower castes who are working in fields that are outside of the their traditional domains. There are also Brahmins in India who are impoverished.

    Caste is not relevant in this conversation. The Indians who came were POOR.
    1) if caste is not relevant in this conversation then ethnicity is not relevant in any conversation concerning new africans. People who would not have lived together currently living together.

    2) Yes there are Brahmins who are poor but they still have better opportunities than Shudras or untouchables in India. So still the impetus would have been greater for untouchables than others to leave.

    3) It is English propaganda that indians were given some great opportunity. The decision for a young person to leave everything and never come back is a desperate one. And what happened to them in the West Indies was not good even if it was marginally better than slavery. Any analysis other than that is more biased than intelligent.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  13. #28
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    let me clarify. What I said was that it was the "Jamaat's Fockery" (meaning their racism and bias and so on) that created a reaction from the SDMS that is lasting and disgusting. People like Sat would not be so powerful for saying the things they say if it weren't for the rejection of non African Culture in the formation of the nation. This was done by everyone including the designer of flag, Carlisle Chang.


    The power of the anti african hindu in my opinion (bearing in mind i am non-native) is a reaction to exclusionary rhetoric made by the PNM as a whole (not necessarily Eric Williams although he as a global African leader could be perhaps be scapegoated with powerful argument)

    On the one hand, Africanity was exactly what many black nations needed at the time of independence but on the other Trinidad's PNM didn't do enough to make everyone feel included. And the evidence for that is that not everyone felt included.
    You don't make much sense in your clarification especially as you posted a video of Carlisle Chang the person who designed the T&T national flag who clearly said in the video that the flag was designed to encourage inclusion of all races. That is why Black in the flag which is meant to acknowledge the majority race in T&T at the time was not mentioned as representative of race of the majority of the population (who mostly helped to create T&T's cultural identity as a nation with calypso, pan, etc) but that Black symbolized strength. That wording was intentionally done as not to offend the non-Black minority at the time that T&T gained its independence.

    Also note the race of the person whose design was accepted for the T&T flag. Was he African? No, he was Chinese, that seems like inclusion to me. On top of that the person who wrote the T&T national anthem, Patrick Stanislaus "Pat" Castagne was a White Trini who was actually born in Guyana to Trini parents but came back to T&T at an early age to live and start his schooling, etc.

    The reality is that most of the East Indian community in T&T in the 1950's were against T&T going for Independent as they believed that a country run by an African led party would not be fair to East Indians. This is why Eric Williams always bent over backwards to accommodate East Indians in T&T and helped to make them feel empowered in the hope that he would gain their mass support. This is also the reason why the PNM sorted out East Indians to be included in the party from its very birth. And this is also why the PNM regularly rewarded East Indians unfairly with land hoping to win their votes. All thru this the East Indians were loyal to the DLP and its other incarnations thru to the UNC even while benefitting from major incentives from the PNM to give that unbiased political party their support.

    Trying to blame the Jamaat Al Muslimeen's for the racism being preached by Satnarayan Maharaj to members of his Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha organization is stretching things a lot.

    And the Jamaat Al Muslimeen is not a racist organization; they are a pro-Black Muslim organisation that helps everyone who comes to them for help including East Indians so how does that make them racist?

    Why is it that every organization that focuses on the upliftment of Black people is quickly labeled by brainwashed negroes as racist organizations even when they have a track record of helping everyone who comes to them for help regardless of race?
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  14. #29
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Soca Island
    Posts
    16,590
    Credits
    880,832,147
    Quote Originally Posted by bktrini305 View Post
    1) if caste is not relevant in this conversation then ethnicity is not relevant in any conversation concerning new africans. People who would not have lived together currently living together.

    2) Yes there are Brahmins who are poor but they still have better opportunities than Shudras or untouchables in India. So still the impetus would have been greater for untouchables than others to leave.

    3) It is English propaganda that indians were given some great opportunity. The decision for a young person to leave everything and never come back is a desperate one. And what happened to them in the West Indies was not good even if it was marginally better than slavery. Any analysis other than that is more biased than intelligent.
    How could being offered land as an incentive to stay after indenture-ship was over not be good for those who were involved? And if things were so bad for them how come hardly any to none of them wanted to return to India after their indenture-ship period ended?

    As I have been saying in this thread from the beginning the East Indians had it relatively easy when compared to what the Africans had to go thru and it is an insult to the ancestors of Africans to even try to compare the oppression of the two groups when they came to the Caribbean. One group was forcibly taken to the Caribbean while the other came of their own free will.

    Guess who cleared most of the forest in Caroni and other areas created the roads and planted the canes fields cocoa fields etc and died in the thousands during that grueling process and were not paid for their joy either?

    And guess who came in a short 70 year indenture ship period and then ended up with most of the Caroni farm lands after being paid for their work.

    I would say that one group had it quite good which is why hardly any of them wanted to return to India and being at the bottom of the caste system once again.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

  15. #30
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,899
    Credits
    40,877,603
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    You don't make much sense in your clarification especially as you posted a video of Carlisle Chang the person who designed the T&T national flag who clearly said in the video that the flag was designed to encourage inclusion of all races. That is why Black the majority race in T&T at the time was not mentioned as representative of race of the majority of the population at the time who helped to create T&T's culture but that Black symbolized strength. That wording was intentionally done as not to offend the no-Black minority at the time that T&T gained its independence.

    Also note the race of the person whose design was accepted for the T&T flag. Was he African? No, he was Chinese, that seems like inclusion to me. On top of that the person who wrote the T&T anthem Patrick Stanislaus "Pat" Castagne was a White Trini who was actually born in Guyana to Trini parents but came back to T&T at an early age to start his schooling, etc.
    I got something completely different from that video. To me it sounded like "make sure its black but nobody feels like it's black" in which case that is an example of the PNM not doing enough. And coming from a Chinese person solidifies me saying that this came from EVERYONE. Yes he is Chinese but had no problem making sure that the African is most represented in the flag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    The reality is that most of the East Indian community in T&T in the 1950's were against T&T going for Independent as they believed that a country run by an African led party would not be fair to East Indians. This is why Eric Williams always bent over backwards to accommodate East Indians in T&T and helped to make them feel empowered in the hope that he would gain their mass support. This is also the reason why the PNM sorted out East Indians to be included in the party from its very birth. And this is also why the PNM regularly rewarded East Indians unfairly with land hoping to win their votes. All thru this the East Indians were loyal to the DLP and other incarnations even why benefitting from major incentivizes from the PNM to give that unbiased party their political support.
    This I only knew on some levels but would love to know more about. do you have a cite or a book or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    Trying to blame the Jamaat Al Muslimeen's for the racism being preached by Satnarayan Maharaj to members of his Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha organization is stretching things a bit.

    And the Jamaat Al Muslimeen is not a racist organization; they are a pro-Black Muslim organist ion that helps everyone who comes to them for help including East Indians so how does that make them racist?

    Why is it that every organization that focuses on the upliftment of Black people are quickly labeled by brainwashed negroes as racist organizations even when they have a track record of helping everyone who comes to them for help regardless of race?
    I was using the Jamaat as a parallel, not really accusing them of being at the heart of it.

    I'm trying to refer to a general sentiment and understanding that is based on the context of the time of independence. And though the second quote in this post mildly alters my opinion, I still say that the Afrocentric movement was a very particular portion of Anti Colonial thinking. Ghandi himself wasn't Pro African - he even went to south africa and did little for the africans there.

    It makes every bit of sense that a government rules by Pan Africanists would not have done everything necessary for the Indian to feel included. And you telling me that indians didn't have faith in an African government makes me think even more now that the reverse would also have been true.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •