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Thread: Questions for T-Makaa and others (theological discussion)

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    Registered User Shabeel's Avatar Shabeel is offline
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    Questions for T-Makaa and others (theological discussion)

    So I was thinking since it's Lent and everything, I should spend more time schooling myself about this and that. I was at the library today and I was reading through some selected writings by Jung and came across a few excerpts from his Answer to Job. Jung was obviously tormented by the story of Job and the book he wrote was an attempt to make sense, in his own psycho-analytics way, of what he saw as a (for lack of a more positive term) morally inscrutable God.

    Anyway, reading through this re-awakened some dilemmas that I myself was confronted with every time I tried to read a sacred text (especially the Bible and Qur'an). Personally, I get my understanding of God by observing nature, by observing relationships, and that is what made me a mystic. I believe God is Love. But every time I want to get more grounded and, let's say open the Bible, I have this terrible revulsion, like the God of the text is something different from what I know and am familiar with, something unapproachable and cruelly distant.

    When I read through zillions of passages proclaiming God's might, and how punishment awaits those who disbelieve, when I read about whole populations being wiped out...I just get this impression of a vindictive, pitiable God, and it just makes me put the book down EVERY TIME. And I just can't believe it, I can't believe God would do those things, and it makes me feel terrible.

    What are your thoughts about the nature of God and about how he is represented in text such as the Bible? What am I missing?
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    Players Play I Coach Swollen's Avatar Swollen is offline
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    Jesus.....

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    Wisdomologist Longing For's Avatar Longing For is offline
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    This is a good example of why you must have an understanding of the whole and not focus on part.

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    Registered User Shabeel's Avatar Shabeel is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swollen View Post
    Jesus.....
    Hmmmm

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    Anonymous Riley Escobar's Avatar Riley Escobar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shabeel View Post
    So I was thinking since it's Lent and everything, I should spend more time schooling myself about this and that. I was at the library today and I was reading through some selected writings by Jung and came across a few excerpts from his Answer to Job. Jung was obviously tormented by the story of Job and the book he wrote was an attempt to make sense, in his own psycho-analytics way, of what he saw as a (for lack of a more positive term) morally inscrutable God.

    Anyway, reading through this re-awakened some dilemmas that I myself was confronted with every time I tried to read a sacred text (especially the Bible and Qur'an). Personally, I get my understanding of God by observing nature, by observing relationships, and that is what made me a mystic. I believe God is Love. But every time I want to get more grounded and, let's say open the Bible, I have this terrible revulsion, like the God of the text is something different from what I know and am familiar with, something unapproachable and cruelly distant.

    When I read through zillions of passages proclaiming God's might, and how punishment awaits those who disbelieve, when I read about whole populations being wiped out...I just get this impression of a vindictive, pitiable God, and it just makes me put the book down EVERY TIME. And I just can't believe it, I can't believe God would do those things, and it makes me feel terrible.

    What are your thoughts about the nature of God and about how he is represented in text such as the Bible? What am I missing?
    I'm not going to give any thoughts about the nature of God... What I'd suggest you do is read the stories of Joseph and Moses...
    Seven is the number of the natural world. There are 7 days in the week, 7 notes on the musical scale and 7 directions (left, right, up, down, forward, back and center). The Sages teach that seven are the attributes of physicality: Height, Width, Depth, Top and Bottom (limits height), Front and Back (limits width), Left and Right (limits depth), the connecting of the other six.

  6. #6
    T-MAKAA
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    Wait. Lets start with Job. What did God do to Job? I will address the comment about wiping out populations later on. Fair questions though.

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    Registered User Shabeel's Avatar Shabeel is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-MAKAA View Post
    Wait. Lets start with Job. What did God do to Job? I will address the comment about wiping out populations later on. Fair questions though.
    He let Satan rob him of his livestock, kill his kids and make him gravely ill, all this to see about the man's loyalty.

    The illness? Okay.

    The livestock? I don't know.

    But killing off his kids??? Wrong wrong wrong to me.

    What is most disturbing about the story is what I interpret to be sheer arrogance and lack of empathy on God's side.

    God says "oh you can't understand why I act the way I do, because you're just a man and you don't know what it's like to run a universe" - but I don't think there can be anything scarier to a man than violence and lack of compassion in the God he prays to.

    And it's the sheer pettiness that really gets to me - God is acting like a bully in this story "oh I'm so strong, you're so small blablabla". And at the end God is basically like "aw forget about those kids, I'm gonna give you better ones now" which seems pretty nasty to me.

    I mean, who am I to judge God? But still, I just get that sick feeling inside when I see stories like this. It's like finding out your father who held you as a baby is a rapist and child killer. I mean you still love him cause he's your father, but you just don't want him to have that side. Dunno...
    Hello BKLYN likes this.

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    SweetfuhDayz agroDOLCE's Avatar agroDOLCE is offline
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    generally speaking, i think it's important (as Longing For mentioned) to try and understand the whole. additionally, it's important to not formulate our own ideas of what we think love is and what/who God should be. a lot of the time we ask how can a God that's supposed to love us so much allow bad things to happen. God is love, but God is also just-- there are consequences to sin.
    dollbabi and mz_JazE like this.

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    Registered User Lucianite is offline
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    @Shabeel I hear ya... I think brought the topic to T-Makaa. there is this push back that we are not reading the "whole story" and stuff that at the end of day does not really help people trying to understand

    I think it goes backs to the old "leap of Faith" - you MUST take that leap. I agree with those that say keep reaading and thats what I have been doing.

    on topic just this morning I was reading the end of levitivus 26:14... and was like WOW !!

    “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
    18 “‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit.

    21 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

    23 “‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.

    27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies[a] on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

    36 “‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’ sins they will waste away.

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    Registered User Lucianite is offline
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    Is that we learned that God is Benevolent, Omniscient and omnipotent , and some of this stuff in the bible is not "benevolent"


    Zora Neale Hurston "
    “Two things everybody's got tuh do fuh theyselves. They got tuh go tuh God, and they got tuh find out about livin' fuh theyselves.”

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    Registered User Lucianite is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longing For View Post
    This is a good example of why you must have an understanding of the whole and not focus on part.
    the parts gotta make sense too ... no ?

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    Registered User Lucianite is offline
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    Is it important, who , what why, when was the bible written ?

  13. #13
    T-MAKAA
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    Lucianite sit this out for a lil bit this isnt your thread.

    Shabeel I will be back

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    Wisdomologist Longing For's Avatar Longing For is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucianite View Post
    the parts gotta make sense too ... no ?
    walk with me... talk with me...

    what good is your driveway when you only have the radiator and the left fender sitting in the middle of it?

    That is not the purpose of a driveway. But then again. most people would be stuck on the fact that why is a radiator and a fender in the driveway. Its makes the property look bad. its devaluing the neighbourhood. why isn't that in the garage? matter of fact, where is the rest of the car?

    You see how easily it can go all over the place, get confusing, digress or make no sense.

    The question T-Makaa ask him... What he should ask himself is what was the purpose of God allowing the devill to torment Job? Don't just dwell on the part where the devil killed his kids. You're going back to a parts in the driveway.
    The reason why the parts are in the driveway is because I did not have the keys to my boys house and he told me to just put it in the driveway, he will be home in an hour to move it. When he gets home he will fix his car. But you, the nosey neighbour accross the street noticing the parts in the driveway is bugging about your property will be devalued because the guy accross the street is turning his driveway into a junk yard.

    That's why you need to know the whole. Parts only exist because they belongs to a whole.

    Now ask yourself... why did you beleive that the driveway was part of the subject matter when I first mentioned it?

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    Registered User Lucianite is offline
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    **looking around **

    is it safe for me to be here ?

    : @ Driveway analogy - but if me , nosey neighbor does not question I would know not the details to expalain to the community board and avoid you getting a fine...

    but seriously, I hear ya... and thas why I said I keep on reading and asking questions and consider what you and have others have to say.....

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