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Thread: Pre-Colonial Homosexuality in Africa.

  1. #1
    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Pre-Colonial Homosexuality in Africa.

    Pre-Colonial Homosexuality in Africa.
    Educate yourself.
    Read a little

    Oh, Black Diablo. If you want to debate facts only feel free to post them and I will address each claim.

    Still waiting for some evidence other than
    "The authors are White or Gay" or some strawman like that.
    Simple facts. Tell me your side of the story:
    How did the Europeans introduce homosexuality/bisexuality?
    How do you account for evidence of precolonial homosexuality/bisexuality elsewhere?
    How did Europeans get Africans to adopt this practice?
    How do gay Africans become homosexual/bisexual today?

    Still waiting for th excuse geniuses to actually come up with some evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by blaCDiablO View Post
    the faggat and their supporters are in control of many things INCLUDING dancehall music and dancehall sites....

    They would like to fuk in public and teach children that AFrica has always had a history of faggotry thereby rewriting history and excluding the FACT that it was FORCED on slaves...
    Where is the evidence of their control? Where is the evidence of forced homosexuality on slaves in the interior of Africa by European slavers. Or that these slaves accepted and promulgated the practice in Africa. How did they teach it to the next generation?

    Quote Originally Posted by blaCDiablO View Post
    I am not surprised that in those articles they write how the eurpeans were "shocked, bewildered, confused, dumbfounded" at witnessing homosexualtiy in Africa...
    so these upright godly missionaries, soldiers of fortune, pirates and murderers are people we should trust?
    And they would know that this would be a debate in the future and made a specific plan to say the same thing to confuse people like you in the future.

    they didnt know of roman baths and roman orgies...
    when one thinks of homosexuality in rome compared to homosexuality in zimbabwe its COMPLETELY differnt...
    So you admit that the homosexuality existed, just different.

    many of the people who chose to become sailors WERE PRISONERS, MURDERERS, RAPISTS, and many other flawed characters as you would find in a prison
    And Africa had none of these?

    Other than Greece and Rome, show me homosexuality was accepted in the rest of the European world. Show me your evidence of Germanic homosexuality in ancient history. Basque, Gaelic, etc. Oh, they didn't have writing, like most of Africa? Oh so sorry. That is evidence for you. Europe was one of the most homophobic places in the world during its Christian theocratic regimes. When Colonialism hit Africa, homophobia was at an all time high. Feel free to show me all your great texts of homophilia that was being spread into Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by blaCDiablO View Post
    NAIROBI—Kenyan President Daniel arap Moi has joined a growing list of African leaders to attack gays, saying homosexuality is a "scourge" that goes against Christian teachings and African traditions.
    And Christianity wasn't African. Homophobia was brought to Africa.

    Earrings are also part of traditional dress for some of Kenya’s oldest tribes, including its Maasai warriors.
    And you had a point?
    Quote Originally Posted by blaCDiablO View Post
    I want you to pay special attention to that though...
    In some tribes the people wore little or no clothing...
    You can hardly find if any that equivalent in European society...
    Maybe cause of weather...
    My point to you is that the thinking by the people was completely different than the thinking in Europe...
    Girls with breast out and pubic hair showing...
    There wasnt anarchy and widespread raping...
    we are dealing with two completely different mentalities of peoples here
    SO, according to you all those African cultures that did wear a lot of clothing in the north were full of rape and anarchy.

    And no, this thread is not getting deleted by the mods. I am deleting it each time someone posts anything that is not facts pertaining to the debate.

  2. #2
    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taina View Post
    I found this

    Homosexuality in Prehistoric Africa
    Our knowledge of homosexuality in prehistoric African cultures is limited by the late-Middle Age European views of Africans, of homosexuality, and of course, the European reason for being in sub-Saharan Africa in the first place - the slave trade. Among the earliest references to it are some of the records of the Inquisition in Brazil. From the Denunciations of Bahia,) comes this thoroughly racist reference to it:

    "Francisco Manicongo, a cobbler's apprentice known among the slaves as a sodomite for 'performing the duties of a female' and for 'refusing to wear the men's clothes which the master gave him.' Francisco's accuser added that in Angola and the Congo in which he had wandered much and of which he had much experience, it is customary among the pagan negros to wear a loincloth with the ends in front which leaves an opening in the rear... this custom being adopted by the sodomitic negros who serve as passive women in the abominable sin. These passives are called jimbandaa in the language of Angola and the Congo, which means passive sodomite. The accuser claimed to have seen Francisco Manicongo "wearing a loincloth such as passive sodomites wear in his land of the Congo and immediately rebuked him." (quoted by J. Treveisan, Perverts in Paradise, London, 1986. Elipses are his.)
    We can see from such references, that homosexuality was present in Africa from at least the earliest of European contact, and without much doubt, from long before. It wasn't just central Africa, either. While European proprieties made such graphic description of African homosexualities uncommon in their descriptions of Africa, there are enough references to it to know that it was indeed present, and even used as a justification for considering African cultures primitive enough to justify slavery.

    Among the last African cultures to be subjugated by Europeans, the Hausa peoples of northern Nigeria and the surrounding countries offer interesting examples of homosexuality among Islmaicized peoples of Africa. Conquered by the British only in 1904, they were studied extensively by British ethnographers within a decade and a half of the arrival of the British - having experienced very limited contact with Europeans in the meantime. These ethnographers included sexual practices, including homosexuality, in their survey. Thus, they give us a unique glimpse into a nearly pristine African Islamic culture.

    The Hausa people have terms in their language that are used to describe homosexuals. Two terms are common, 'yan dauda, which is usually translated as "homosexual" or "transvestite" and 'dan dauda, which translates as a homosexual "wife." The 'yan dauda in Hausaland engange in stereotypical professions, much as marginalized gay men in the west often do. In Hausaland, they are often engaged in the sex trade - both as male prostitutes and as 'procurers' for female prostitutes. In the latter role, they do not behave as 'pimps' do in the west, maintaining 'stables' of female prostitutes under their subjugation, but rather simply as go-betweens, arranging, for a fee, liasons for men seeking the commercial charms of female prostitutes. In this role, they often engage as male prostitutes themselves when the opportunity arises.

    Among other African tribes, homosexual behavior among premarriage adolescents is common and is not even considered to be sex, since it does not involve procreative potential. In Camaroon, for example, homosexual acts as late as age 17 are considered innocent, not being "true" sexual relations. Such youth consider themselves virgins at marriage, even though they may have considerable homosexual experience in both roles. There are many stories among the Pangwe of Camaroon of men who hate women and prefer the company of men even when offered a large brideprice, of men who court other men, etc. That these behaviors existed within this tribe prior to European contact is evidenced by the richness and number of these stories.

    In Zimbabwe, a nation racked by recent homophobic pogroms instituted by its viciously homophobic dictator, Robert Mugabe, there has historically been little known about homosexual behavior among peoples present prior to European contact. Some ethnographers have dishonestly attempted to show that homosexual behavior is a recent innovation encouraged by Europeans to serve their capital interests, in housing large numbers of male Africans together in barracks to serve as labor in the mines.

    The reality is that homosexuality existed in Zimbabwe long prior to European contact, just like it did anywhere else in Africa. We know this because the San people had the indiscretion to record their group anal sexual intercourse on rock paintings that date back thousands of years.

    The Bantu-speaking peoples of the plateau country were more circumspect, but have admitted to ethnographers that homosexual contact did occur, and was expected of pre-marriage adolescent males.

    Court documents from the colonial era from Zimbabwe and South Africa (1920 and 1917 respectively) indicate that among both the Mazoe and Ndebele peoples of Zimbabwe and South Africa respectively, a fine of one beast was levied against persons attempting to engage in sodomy by traditional rulers in pre-colonial times from both tribes. This fine equates to a misdemeanor - evidence that it was not heavily frowned upon, nor particularly uncommon.

    Colonial court records also show that prosecution for male homosexuality at the onset of colonial rule amounted to 1.5 percent of criminal cases in Zimbabwe, eventually declining to near zero, while prosecutions for heterosexual crimes, such as indecent assault, rape, etc., rose from almost nothing to significant portions of the criminal dockets. It must be noted that because the 1.5 percent represented unwilling participants in the criminal process, the actual extent of homosexual behavior was certainly much greater, since only those caught in flagrante delicto, those prosecuted with amicus, or those accused by jilted lovers or others with an axe to grind, represent the criminal numbers we see in the records. The actual numbers were certainly much higher. In more than 90 percent of cases, the defendant was an African male accused of assualting another African male or boy. Cases involving Europeans were much more rare.

    The notion that this is "a white-man's disease of recent origin" is made laughable by an even cursory examination of the criminal records of colonial Zimbabwe and South Africa. A close qualitative analysis of the early colonial trial transcripts shows that there was often shared property resulting from long-standing cohabitation by the defendant and his accusor. That the courts had to sort out the property details shows that these men had often considered themselves in a de facto marriage prior to their dispute.

    Contrary to Mugabe's and other Afrocentrists' assertions, analysis of the colonial court cases shows that the rate of prosecution for homosexual behaviors was highest among the more indigenous peoples (Shona, 17% and Ndebele, 16%), and least among the "industrialized migrants" from elsewhere (about 3% each for Xhosa, Basotho and Zulu). Presumably the latter had simply learned better how to avoid the white man's justice.


    http://www.bidstrup.com/phobiahistory.htm

    I don't know how true this info is...but hopefully it will make you want to research the topic more if you are curious about it.

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    Africa

    But is homosexuality really a European phenomenon? Let's start with a look at President Mugabe's own country, Zimbabwe. In traditional Zimbabwean law, homosexuality was not mentioned at all. Which does of course not mean that it didn't exist, rather that it was not considered a threat to society, and thus largely accepted and tolerated. Only under colonist rule, and the man whose name the country had to adopt, Cecil Rhodes and Rhodesia, were laws against homosexual practices introduced, which already supports the notion of homosexuality being imported by the colonizers. The situation in the country today is that this law still exists, but "offenders" are never prosecuted, unless they have been apprehended on other charges, in which case homosexual activity can be used to induce a harder sentence. As mentioned previously, both black and white gays in modern Zimbabwe band together to form a united gay rights front, with the aim of obtaining western-style gay rights and recognition (Coutinho 1993).

    But let's stay focused on the traditional attitude in Africa. In the Hausa tribes of present day Nigeria and Niger, the word "'yan daudu" was used to describe men who acted like women. They would for instance perform traditional female chores, such as cooking and selling food, use female names for themselves and eachother, speak in high pitch female voices, and indeed engage in sexual and romantic relationships with "real" men. They build extensive networks among themselves within the Hausa people, extending as far as into Sudan. They consider eachother as "girlfriends", and would never engage in sexual activity with eachother. These men do however not make a conscious effort to look like women; many of them wear a moustache and short hair. Marriage and procreation are considered normal goals in life, regardless of sexual orientation, and so these 'yan daudu typically marry and conceive offspring. However, they may still choose to live away from their "families", and only visit occasionally, bringing gifts, money, or food. In their daily lives, they earn their keep through selling food on the streets, prostitution, or procuring. The latter two may sound harsh, but often translate into a close, committed relationship with the "customers", and often a 'yan daudu will have a steady client, to whom he will refer as a "boyfriend", and also live in a relationship-like situation with. inclusive of sex, friendship, and exchange of money and gifts. The 'yan daudu are very popular as entertainers at parties, since they are very good at singing, dancing, and performing (Geschiere 1994).

    In today's West Africa, sex between men, even same-sex relationships, are widely known of and accepted. It is however never referred to as "homosexuality", since the word has connotations of passivity, transvestism, and deviance. Since it is considered normal in Africa to marry and procreate, even young gay men assume that they will do the same. Failure to marry by a certain age is considered failure in life. As long as the family is not neglected, the man can continue his relationships with other men. Although religion is very important, people tend to take a pragmatic approach to the rules it imposes, and national laws often don't dictate people's private lives (Potman 1993).

    Interestingly, a Tanzanian magazine dedicated an entire issue to the question of homosexuality. All the contributing writers were very negative, but instead of blaming it on western society, they claimed that it was imported to Tanzania by the Arabs (Geschiere 1994)! Understandably so, that country has been subjected to more Arab influences than European. For instance, African slaves were shipped to Arab countries, where even Islam permitted the owners to sexually exploit the slaves, men and women alike. Islamic law further permitted the slave owners also ownership of the slaves' sexual organs (Van Gelder 1993)! To make a natural transition to the next continent discussed, Asia, I will relate the attitudes of the Moroccan population, Arabs living in Africa.

    The European image of the Arab world is full of sex, sin, fairy tales, mysticism, and many other things that Christian values have curbed in Europe. Also Islam, being anything but more permissive than Christianity, has had a major impact on the attitudes and behavior of people. The general attitude towards homosexual activity in Morocco is that it is simply done, not talked about. Identifying as a homosexual is shameful, as is taking the passive role during anal intercourse. Such people are no longer considered men, nut something weak, inferior, sick. Younger boys are often penetrated by older boys to manifest the difference in power and strength. Male children playing sexual games are tolerated as going through a phase, but same-sex sex beyond adolescence is severely punished by the father of the family. The young man is then considered to bring shame on the entire family. To maintain their maleness while engaging in same-sex sex, a man has to always be the active partner, and preferably also receive some money or small gift from the other partner, even if only of symbolic value. This removes the stigma of having had pleasure from the encounter, and implies that the other party was the exploited one, and exploitation is considered manly. Transvestites do exist in Morocco. They dress like women, keep their male names but refer to themselves as women, remain passive in sex, but many of them eventually marry (Van Gelder 1993).
    also

    Homosexuality in “Traditional” Sub-Saharan Africa and Contemporary South Africa

    also

    coca-cola, macdonalds and homosexuals?
    Is homosexuality African? If you inclined to believe Mugabe, Nujoma and some other Africans, homosexuality is yet another one of those perfidious Western vices. Yet there are many indications that even in Africa, homosexuality is as old as mankind itself. But the prison sentences do come from the West.

    The big question is whether the concept that homosexuality is un-African is correct. San -Bushmen- cave paintings at least two thousand years depict copulating men. Anthropologists in, for instance, Zimbabwe, describe various forms of sex between African men in the pre-colonial era. Experts in the field of Shona customary law note that relationships between men were not uncommon. In some cultures it was in fact expected of boys in puberty that they would experiment with each other. Especially in warrior cultures there would be sexual relationships between men. The anthropologist Max Gluckman has noted that one of the most famous African warlords, Shaka Zulu, was a latent homosexual.

    Less is known of such relationships between women in Africa. There is some literature about the long existent sexual contact between "mummies" and "babies" in Lesotho, where women have relationships in which the one (the mother) protects the other. Other cases have been described in which women developed relationships within a polygamous marriage. Traditional culture, geared towards reproduction and family ties did not approve of this, but often looked the other way.

    Little has been written about the sexual side of female marriages such as those of the Lovedu, a tribe in the north of South Africa. Here one of the partners is responsible for the household, procreation and the harvest, but probably not for other "marital duties".

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    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    The thing I am amused by the most is Afrocentrics that try to claim Africa could do nothing that would be wrong in their eyes, but yet they were the supposed initiators of all other cultures as well.
    Oh shucks, more and more it comes out, that Africans are human like everybody else, with eccentricities like everyone else.



    African Terms for Same-Sex Patterns*

    kimbanda, diviners; esenge (pl. omasenge), man possessed by female spirit; eshengi (pl. ovashengi), "he who is approached from behind"
    -Ambo/Ovambo (Wanyama)

    wändarwäräd, "male-female"; wändawände, "mannish women"
    -Amhara (Amharic)

    jigele ketön, reciprocal anal intercourse
    -Bafia (Fia)

    mzili (pl., inzili); buyazi
    -Bagishu/Bageshu, Gisu

    kitesha (pl. bitesha), male and female
    -Bala/Basongye/Ba-songe/Songe

    mokobo, tongo, sterile men
    -Bambala/Mbala

    akho’si, lagredis, court eunuch; gaglgo, homo-sexuality
    -Dahomey (Fon)

    m’uzonj’ame katumua, male lover; m’ndumbi, "podicator"
    -Gangella/Ovigangella

    onek, active male
    -Gikuyu/Kikuyu

    ’dan daudu (pl. ’yan daudu); k’wazo/baja, older/younger men; kifi, lesbianism
    -Hausa

    okutunduka vanena, anal intercourse; epanga, lover; oupanga, erotic friendship (male or female)
    -Herero (Damara)

    mwaami, "prophet"
    -Ila

    sagoda
    -Konso

    londo, nonmasculine males
    -Krongo/Korongo/Kurungo

    mudoko dako
    -Lango

    ashtime
    -Maale/Male/Maalia

    kiziri
    -Maragoli/Logooli

    mugawe
    -Meru

    tubele, nonmasculine males
    -Mesakin (Ngile)

    mke-si-mume, "woman, not man," male and female homosexuals; mashoga (sing. shoga), male; basha (pl. mabasha), partner of mashoga; msagaji, msago (pl. wasagaji, misago), "grinders," lesbians
    -Mombasa (Swahili)

    soronés, pages
    -Mossi (More)

    tinkonkana, boy wives
    -Mpondo/Pondo (Pana)

    koetsire, sexually receptive males; soregus, friendship bond; ôa-/huru, /huru, mutual masturbation; /goe-ugu, "tribadie"
    -Naman/Hottentot/Kaf-fir

    agyale, "friendship marriages" (sex denied)
    -Nzema

    eshenga, gender-mixing male shamans
    -Ondonga (Ndonga)

    a bele nnem e bango, "he has the heart [aspirations] of boys"
    -Pangwe/Pahouian (Fang)

    umuswezi, umukonotsi, "sodomite"; kuswerana nk’imbwa, kunonoka, kwitomba, kuranana inyuma, ku’nyo, male homosexuality; ikihindu and ikimaze (Mirundi), "hermaphrodite" priests
    -Rwanda/Ruanda (spoken by Hutus and Tutsis)

    nkhonsthana, tinkonkana, nkonkana boy wife; nima, husband
    -Tsonga (Thonga)

    chibadi, chibanda, chibados, jimbandaa, kibamba, quimbanda
    -Umbundu/Mbunda/ Ovimbundu

    omututa, (male) homosexuals; eponji, "lovers"
    -Wawihé/Viye

    gor-digen, men-women; yauss, insertors; oubi, "open," insertees
    -Wolof/Woloff

    ndongo-techi-la, boy-wives
    -Zande/Azande/Sandeh

    inkosi ygbatfazi, "chief of the women" (diviners); amankotshane, izinkotshane, inkotshane, boy-wife; skesana, cross-gender males; iqgenge, masculine partners
    -Zulu

    *The names of most African groups in the historical and ethnographic literature are language names. Language appears in parentheses in the case of groups whose names are not language names. Variants of group names are separate by slashes.

    FROM THE INTRODUCTION. . .

    In leading the exploration and colonization of Africa, the Portuguese became the first Europeans to realize that African sexuality and gender diverged in surprising and, to them, shocking ways from their own. In the early seventeenth century their efforts to conquer the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu (Umbundu) tribe (whom they called the Ngolas, which was actually the title of their king) were stymied by the inspired leadership of a warrior woman named Nzinga (c.). Nzinga had become ngola by succeeding her brother, which was not unusual in a matrilineal society like the Mbundu’s. Less typical was the fact that she had ordered her own nephew’s death to prevent him from claiming his father’s title. Nzinga proceeded to organize a guerilla army and personally lead her warriors into battle. She successfully out-manuevered the Portuguese for nearly four decades (Sweetman 1971, 1984: 39-47).

    In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché observed firsthand what must have struck him as the strange organization of her court. As ngola, Nzinga was not “queen” but “king” of her people. She ruled dressed as a man, surrounded by a harem of young men who dressed as women and were her “wives.” Wherever she appeared, her subjects fell to their knees and kissed the ground (Dapper 1670: 238). Nzinga managed to preserved Ndongo independence for a generation—indeed, it was not until the early twentieth century that the Portuguese finally broke Mbundu resistance.

    Other early reports from Angola, discussed later in this volume, make it clear that Nzinga’s behavior was not some personal idiosyncracy, but based on beliefs that recognized gender as situational and symbolic as much as a personal, innate characteristic of the individual. A result of these beliefs was the presence of an alternative gender role among the tribes of the Kongo and Ndonga kingdoms. According to Andrew Battel, an English prisoner of the Portuguese in the 1580s, natives of the Dombe area were “beastly in their living, for they have men in women’s apparell, whom they keep among their wives” (Purchas 1625, Vol. 2, Book VII, Chap. 3, Sec. 2, p. 973).

    The reports from Angola set the tone for what followed. When natives, like E. E. Evans-Pritchard’s Zande informants, told Europeans that men had sex with boys “just because they like them,” Europeans were shocked, surprised, and confused. Cover of Boy-Wives and Female HusbandsThey recorded but did not understand sexual and gender practices that epitomized for them how black Africans were different from (and inferior to) them. . . .

    This book is organized geographically according to four broad regions of sub-Saharan Africa—the Sudan, Horn of Africa, and East Africa; West Africa (including coastal West Africa and the interior sudanic region); Central Africa (from the tropical rainforests of the equatorial region to the Congo basin and east to present-day Tanzania); and southern Africa (from Mozambique and Zambia to South Africa and Namibia). Each of the four regional sections begins with a survey of historical and anthropological reports of same-sex patterns by the editors. The volume concludes with a review of the literature on woman-woman marriages, a general conclusion, and an appendix in which correlations between same-sex patterns and other features of African societies are analyzed. . . .
    FROM THE CONCLUSION. . .

    The contributions to this volume unequivocally refute claims that African societies lacked homosexual patterns and had no words for those who desire their own sex. Evidence of same-sex patterns has been reported or reviewed here for some fifty African societies, all of which had words—many words, with many meanings—for them. These societies are found within every region of the continent, and they represent every language family, social and kinship organization, and subsistence pattern. There is substantial evidence that same-sex practices and patterns were “traditional” and “indigenous.” While contact between Africans and non-Africans has sometimes influence both groups’ sexual patterns, there is no evidence that one group ever “introduced” homosexuality where it had not existed before. Since anthropologists and other observers have rarely inquired systematically into the presence of homosexuality in Africa (or elsewhere), absence of evidence can never be assumed to be evidence of absence. Considering that this collection represents the first serious study of the subject, undoubtedly future research will identify many other groups with distinct patterns of homosexuality. . . .


  5. #5
    Bush Baby Audree's Avatar Audree is offline
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    Yuh like to discuss bamcee prickin.....wtf is next..
    Marcus Garvey said you would not know yourself till your back is against the wall. It gone through the wall now.

  6. #6
    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    Kolb (1719:362) mentioned Khoi-Khoin males, called koetsire, who were sexually receptive to other males. Long-time resident of German South-West Africa (what is now Namibia) Kurt Falk (1920) reported homosexuality among the Wawihé, Ovivangella and Nginé of Angola. Falk (1925) maintained that homosexuality among speakers of Khoisan languages is fairly common among both men and women, and especially among young married women.
    There exists among the Naman a practice whereby two individuals, either of the same or of opposite sex, will enter into a specially intimate bond of association, soregus, with each other.
    This is initiated by one of the parties drinking from a bowl of water (or nowadays often coffee), and then handing the rest of the liquid to the other to drink.... As a rule the relationship thus
    entered upon primarily implies deep friendship and mutual assistance, especially in economic matters. But, according to Falk, it is also used as a means of establishing a homosexual
    relationship, especially by boys, who jealously watch over each other. The customary form of homosexual practice is mutual masturbation, among both men and women; pedication (coitus
    in anum) between men, and the use of an artificial penis between women, are also found, but more rarely. Falk mentions also three cases known to him of men who were confirmed sexual inverts.

    http://semgai.free.fr/doc_et_pdf/africa_A4.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...161152,00.html

    In many non-European cultures, sexual acts between humans and animals were never taboo. They were, for instance, not punished or even considered socialy unacceptable among Hopi Indians and Kupfer Eskimos in America or among the Kusaia and Masai Tribes in Africa. Indeed, it has been reported that Masai adolescents frequently used donkeys as a sexual outlet.
    http://www.lectlaw.com/files/sex04.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    Funny how you see homosexuality among the oldest people in the world, the KhoiSan
    coca-cola, macdonalds and homosexuals?
    Is homosexuality African? If you inclined to believe Mugabe, Nujoma and some other Africans, homosexuality is yet another one of those perfidious Western vices. Yet there are many indications that even in Africa, homosexuality is as old as mankind itself. But the prison sentences do come from the West.

    The big question is whether the concept that homosexuality is un-African is correct. San -Bushmen- cave paintings at least two thousand years depict copulating men. Anthropologists in, for instance, Zimbabwe, describe various forms of sex between African men in the pre-colonial era. Experts in the field of Shona customary law note that relationships between men were not uncommon. In some cultures it was in fact expected of boys in puberty that they would experiment with each other. Especially in warrior cultures there would be sexual relationships between men. The anthropologist Max Gluckman has noted that one of the most famous African warlords, Shaka Zulu, was a latent homosexual.

    Less is known of such relationships between women in Africa. There is some literature about the long existent sexual contact between "mummies" and "babies" in Lesotho, where women have relationships in which the one (the mother) protects the other. Other cases have been described in which women developed relationships within a polygamous marriage. Traditional culture, geared towards reproduction and family ties did not approve of this, but often looked the other way.

    Little has been written about the sexual side of female marriages such as those of the Lovedu, a tribe in the north of South Africa. Here one of the partners is responsible for the household, procreation and the harvest, but probably not for other "marital duties".
    deal with it.

  7. #7
    Links30
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    Oto?

    Ah wah kinda thread this?


    Meh soon come man, damn car stuck in the friggin ice... Stuepss

  8. #8
    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bago20 View Post
    Oto?

    Ah wah kinda thread this?


    Meh soon come man, damn car stuck in the friggin ice... Stuepss
    Simple fact finder.
    The claim has been made that Africa, somehow miraculously had no homosexuality while every other continent did. I am not saying it was ever extensive in Africa, but it was not something that was imported from somewhere else. People need to stop trying to blame every little thing they don't like on foreign influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    Simple fact finder.
    The claim has been made that Africa, somehow miraculously had no homosexuality while every other continent did. I am not saying it was ever extensive in Africa, but it was not something that was imported from somewhere else. People need to stop trying to blame every little thing they don't like on foreign influence.
    Homosexuality was not as extensive in Africa and we must not blame everyone else for outside influence, then how did it manifest in this big thing as we see today? I think it is easy to go with presumptions that homosexuality may have been introduced into Africa some how but yet i do not have any facts indicating this? So my conclusion is that if you yourself also agree that homosexuality was not as extensive in Africa then you and i must also agree that Homosexuality and its practices is not of African Origin.. Correct?

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    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bago20 View Post
    Homosexuality was not as extensive in Africa and we must not blame everyone else for outside influence, then how did it manifest in this big thing as we see today? I think it is easy to go with presumptions that homosexuality may have been introduced into Africa some how but yet i do not have any facts indicating this? So my conclusion is that if you yourself also agree that homosexuality was not as extensive in Africa then you and i must also agree that Homosexuality and its practices is not of African Origin.. Correct?
    Never said it was not as extensive as anywhere else. I said it was not extensive. It really isn't extensive anywhere else either. It is just that the minority group is much more vocal in protecting their rights. But homosexuality/bisexuality has always been present

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    Links30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    Never said it was not as extensive as anywhere else. I said it was not extensive. It really isn't extensive anywhere else either. It is just that the minority group is much more vocal in protecting their rights. But homosexuality/bisexuality has always been present
    In Africa alone. correct?

    Matter of fact, in Ancient Black Civilization, do you even think they knew such things exist and were practiced? History has taught us many things and we are all still learning history everyday but there are not much history(written facts) surrounding this kind of practice in Africa....

    This maybe wishful thinking (I know its not like me) but on personal beliefs i am going to go off by saying this practice was introduced into African Societies along with many other traits from abroad....

    But what i can say is that today this kind of practice is not widely practiced in Africa compared to other European and Asian societies which tend on publicizing and accepting this kind of practice...
    Last edited by Links30; 02-17-2007 at 08:15 PM.

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    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bago20 View Post
    In Africa alone. correct?
    Nope.It has been found virtually everywhere. Hence the belief in some genetic component.

    Matter of fact, in Ancient Black Civilization, do you even think they knew such things exist and were practiced? History has taught us many things and we are all still learning history everyday but there are not much history(written facts) surrounding this kind of practice in Africa....
    I already provided a bunch. Read through them. Of course it wouldn't have been Black as Black didn't exist back then.
    You see the same in other continents.
    This maybe wishful thinking (I know its not like me) but on personal beliefs i am going to go off by saying this practice was introduced into African Societies along with many other traits from abroad....
    So respond to:
    How did the Europeans introduce homosexuality/bisexuality?
    How do you account for evidence of precolonial homosexuality/bisexuality elsewhere?
    How did Europeans get Africans to adopt this practice?
    How do gay Africans become homosexual/bisexual today?
    But what i can say is that today this kind of practice is not widely practiced in Africa compared to other European and Asian societies which tend on publicizing and accepting this kind of practice...
    A lot of things are less free in many places in Africa right now.
    It used to be the same in Europe. They used to burn homosexuals alive.

  13. #13
    Links30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    Nope.It has been found virtually everywhere. Hence the belief in some genetic component.


    I already provided a bunch. Read through them. Of course it wouldn't have been Black as Black didn't exist back then.
    You see the same in other continents.

    Will finish reading it just now....


    So respond to:

    Those questions you pose i cannot answer, on grounds i have little knowledge of homosexuality and its practices thus i will not know its origins and who first introduced the practice...


    ...



    A lot of things are less free in many places in Africa right now.
    It used to be the same in Europe. They used to burn homosexuals alive.
    But in the Caribbean where the majority are of African Descent in many Caribbean nations besides Spanish speaking Caribbean Nations, this kind of practice is still unacceptable..

    So must i too draw the conclusion to limited free expression in African counties the reason why you may feel this practice is not expressed so openly as it is freely expressed in Europe and Asia based on Corrupt governments? Why it just cant be societies in Africa would not tolerate this kind of trait? Besides, even though the AIDS rate are high in Africa, it is transmitted to the opposite sex and cases of same sex AIDS infections are very minimal....

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    Salsero de pura cepa Otorongo's Avatar Otorongo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bago20 View Post
    But in the Caribbean where the majority are of African Descent in many Caribbean nations besides Spanish speaking Caribbean Nations, this kind of practice is still unacceptable.....
    And Christianity based religions are much stronger.

  15. #15
    Links30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otorongo View Post
    And Christianity based religions are much stronger.
    Elaborate......

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