Results 1 to 11 of 11
Like Tree3Likes
  • 2 Post By Poca
  • 1 Post By ladyrastafari

Thread: Parenting French Style

  1. #1
    Registered User Poca's Avatar Poca is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    home
    Posts
    4,202
    Credits
    87,553,099

    Parenting French Style

    'French kids' discipline not down to spanking' - The Local

    French kids' discipline not down to spanking'
    Published: 28 Oct 2013 16:03 GMT+01:00
    Updated: 28 Oct 2013 16:03 GMT+01:00

    FacebookTwitterGoogle+reddit
    The report of a French father being fined for spanking his child, despite the act not being illegal, caused a stir in France this month and raised questions about the differences in parenting styles between France and Anglo countries. Guest blogger Cordelia Newlin de Rojas looks at the issue.

    'It's time the French quit bashing British food' (23 Oct 13)
    Why French children don't throw food (18 Jan 12)

    A court in France handed out a €500 fine earlier this month to a father for spanking his nine-year-old son after the youngster showed him "disrespect". The ruling made waves in France where, controversially, there is still no law banning corporal punishment.

    The father admitted spanking the boy’s bottom, known in France simply as a “fessée” but defended himself, saying he was against the "current fashion" of parenting that stops adults from "correcting children".

    With a recent poll by the Union of Families in Europe (UFE) revealing that 87 percent of French parents admitted having slapped their child at least once, it appears the tradition of la fessée remains strong in France.

    With French children well known for being well behaved, questions arose once again this month over whether their discipline could be down to the apparent willingness of French parents to resort to dishing out a spank or two.

    Here guest blogger Franco-American Cordelia Newlin de Rojas, who is behind the the parenting blog multilingualmama.com, argues that there are plenty of reasons why French kids are well-behaved, but spanking is not one of them:

    "Yet again we debate whether French children are better behaved because they are spanked. As someone bridging the French and Anglo-Saxon cultures, I've experienced both and believe that attributing this to la fessée is too simplistic.

    "Creating an ideal environment for raising well-behaved kids is complex. French parents don’t worry if their children like them. They don’t try to be friends. They see their role as the caregiver – there to educate and raise civil and responsible adults.

    "Good fences make good neighbors. Similarly, good boundaries make good parent-child relationships. Kids are hardwired to push boundaries. Tantrums accompanying this testing have any rational soul concluding their kids would be happier if we were more permissive.

    "Not so. I‘m reminded of the analogy of pushing a door to make sure it's securely shut before leaning against it. If we open the door, kids fall through and lose that sense of security we are aiming for.

    "Le Cadre, the foundation of French parenting describes those boundaries. Applied consistently, we create children who are well-behaved whether they received la fessée or not.

    "The French more easily say no to their kids. They understand that a stern ‘non’ is key to enforcing their boundaries and rules. They also feel no guilt, since kids have a hound-like ability to sense their parents’ guilt which only confuses them.

    "Confusion is bad for kids and worse for parents. I have never encountered a French parent referencing parenting books. In the US, a glut of ‘experts’ peddle their theories, inundating us with parenting ultimatums from the moment the pee stick turns blue.

    "This constant barrage of contradictory voices, implying we will ruin our children if we don’t listen, leaves many parents confused. It’s incredibly detrimental to continuity and consistency, which are both key.

    "French prefer a happy life to a successful one"

    "Good discipline relies heavily on consistency. Basic rules are set and adhered to. It seems simple enough but here’s the catch: certain cultures make consistency with your kids much easier.

    "France is one of those cultures. Here, lunches and leisure time are worshiped. Julia Child wrote in her memoir that she’d asked the owner of a successful restaurant why he didn’t expand.

    "The owner answered ‘But why? I make enough money as it is. I have a good life. Why take on more work when I don’t need to?’ A shoulder shrug surely accompanied that answer.

    "The French prefer a contented life to a hugely successful one. They understand that adequate me-time is critical. Exhausted, overworked, stressed parents have a much harder time towing the line and being consistent than a contented one.

    "In the US, which paradoxically values individuality and personal freedom above all, parents tend to turn over their lives for the sake of their children – or, I should say for their children’s future achievement.

    "In a nation focused on cognitive development rather than general well being, American parents sacrifice weekends and afternoons, chauffeuring kids from one activity to another. Kids and parents are both hyper-scheduled, with little downtime. Not a moment to breathe, relax, and just...Be.

    "US culture being so focused on achievement has a number of knock-on effects. Worship of precociousness and high achievement means we actually encourage rebellion, sending kids mixed signals about following the rules.

    "The French don't believe in negotiating with kids
    "

    "Too often I’ve encountered American parents trying to enforce rules who then turn to me, and praise their kid for their sharp negotiating skills and persistence, all within earshot of the child. This sends the wrong message. The French don’t believe in kids negotiating, case closed.

    There is a time and place for those skills to be learned but certainly not at home.

    "Categorizing things as black and white may be an easier sell in a world where one gets 140 characters to make a point while being bombarded with information 24/7. Who has the time or capacity to delve into the complexities? But by dumbing down the debate, we do ourselves, and in this case our children, a colossal disservice.

    "There are many great lessons to be learned from French parents, but attributing their success to la fessée is missing the point entirely. They remember who is the parent and what the parent is there to do: Set rules and boundaries, enforce them, educate them, and most importantly love them.
    ladyrastafari and mz_JazE like this.
    Chen ki japé pa mòde!

  2. #2
    Notchilous ladyrastafari's Avatar ladyrastafari is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Maison de L'Amitie, Palm Beach
    Posts
    46,039
    Credits
    181,803,372
    very good article Poca...

    i concur... my parents are like this

    ""Creating an ideal environment for raising well-behaved kids is complex. French parents don’t worry if their children like them. They don’t try to be friends. They see their role as the caregiver – there to educate and raise civil and responsible adults. "

    i was asking my mother about a video of a jamaican woman in london whose son was screaming at her and threatening to call the police on her etc.. so i asked my mother, what she would done if that was us.. she just replied " i trained my children at home so they know not to test me in public. case closed" and i couldnt help but think.. so true.. you were raised so that no licks were needed to keep you in check because there were other factors that dictated your behaviour lol.. my mother could just stop what she was doing and peer at you and you start rethinking your actions immediately.. i remember one time my brother was small and tell my mother something about "you're not my friend".. my mother was like okay.. i can live with that.. lol..
    Never waste your time trying to explain who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you.

    Velvet Glove. Iron Fist

    mi style still sharp .....u a A-Minor and dem a B-Flat

  3. #3
    Registered User Poca's Avatar Poca is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    home
    Posts
    4,202
    Credits
    87,553,099
    I never understood that negotiating with children mentality. Here is the Swede style of parenting:

    Is child-centred Sweden ruled by bratty kids? - The Local

    Is child-centred Sweden ruled by bratty kids?
    Published: 28 Oct 2013 07:51 CET | Print version
    Share on reddit More Sharing Services
    As the first country to outlaw hitting children to discipline them, Sweden has long been considered as a role model for good parenting, but some now wonder if children wield too much power, the AFPs Tom Sullivan discovers.
    Patient children have brighter futures: study (17 Oct 2013)
    Bus driver kicks off 19 pre-school kids (11 Oct 2013)
    Nuclear families make comeback in Sweden (3 Oct 2013)



    Sweden had a head start in the good parenting debate as the first country to outlaw smacking but some argue that its child-centred approach has gone too far and children now rule the roost.

    "In some ways Swedish kids are really ill-mannered," David Eberhard, a leading psychiatrist and father of six, told AFP.

    "They shout if there are adults speaking at the dinner table, they interrupt you all the time and they demand the same space as adults."

    Eberhard recently published a book entitled "How Children Took Power" which argues that over the years Swedes have effectively extended their 1979 smacking ban -- now adopted in more than 30 countries -- to a ban on correcting children in any way.

    "Of course you should listen to your children but in Sweden it's gone too far. They tend to decide everything in families: when to go to bed, what to eat, where to go on vacation, even what to watch on television," he said, adding that the permissive approach to child-raising leaves young Swedes ill-equipped for adulthood.

    "Their expectations are too high and life is too hard for them. We see it with anxiety disorders and self-harming which has risen dramatically."

    A question of culture

    That view is contested by several experts including family therapist Martin Forster who says that on the whole Swedish youths still top international rankings of well-being.

    "Sweden was very much inspired by ideas that children should be more in the centre and they should be listened to," he said.

    "That children decide too much -- that's a matter of values. Different approaches to parenting and children produce different cultures."

    Nonetheless, there is a lively debate about how the approach has influenced schools with falling grades and complaints about rowdy classrooms.

    "Two boys were swearing at each other -- I didn't think seven-year-olds even knew words like that -- and when I tried to intervene they swore at me and told me to mind my own business," said Ola Olofsson, a journalist at a southern Swedish newspaper, describing a visit to his seven-year-old daughter's classroom.

    When he wrote a column about the chaos he witnessed at the school, the paper's website was inundated with hundreds of comments from exasperated parents and teachers.

    One preschool teacher from Stockholm wrote that the four and five-year-olds she teaches regularly say "You think I care!" when asked to do something.

    "Just the other day a four-year-old spat at me when I asked him to stop climbing on some shelves," she added.

    Parenting a political issue

    But what is it that makes Swedish parenting different?

    Family therapist Martin Forster says it's more of a political issue and that all the public debate about right and wrong may leave parents more confused than elsewhere.

    Following a government inquiry on child welfare in 2010, a free parenting course, called "All Children in the Centre", was offered by local authorities to support parents struggling with young children.

    Its main message is that punishing children does not make them behave in the long run and setting boundaries is not always the right approach.

    "If you want a child to cooperate the best way is to have a close relationship so the child will want to cooperate with you," said psychologist Kajsa Lönn-Rhodin, one of the architects of the course, rejecting the idea that children have taken over.

    "I think it's a bigger problem when children are treated badly... when there's harsh parenting," she said.

    Marie Märestad and her husband took the course in Stockholm in 2012 when their daughters were aged two and three. At meal times the children often ran about and pushed toys around the kitchen table.

    "We found we were nagging them all the time, they were fighting a lot... we had a lot of disputes in the morning when it was time to get dressed," said the energetic 39-year-old personal trainer.

    "Our youngest would have tantrums and nothing worked... We had a pretty tough time so we thought it would be a good idea to get some tips and advice," she added, pouring coffee as her daughters played with Lego on the birchwood floor of their suburban house.

    She said the course helped them "pick their battles" and communicate better with the children -- but she added that children do often tend to dominate in Swedish homes.

    "You can see it with many of our friends, that it's the children who are in charge, it feels like."

    Parents are not pals

    Hugo Lagercrantz, a professor of pediatrics at Karolinska University Hospital, believes Swedish parenting owes a lot to the country's emphasis on democracy and equality.

    "Swedish parents try to be too democratic...They should act like parents and take decisions and not try to be popular all the time."

    However Lagercrantz also sees an upside to the Swedish approach.

    "Swedish children are very outspoken and can express their opinions," he said, adding that the country's tradition of equality helped spawn homegrown multinationals like H&M and Ikea, known for their flat management style, where there are fewer layers of middle management.

    "Sweden is not very hierarchical and in some respects that's very good, it's one of the reasons why the country is doing fairly well economically.
    Chen ki japé pa mòde!

  4. #4
    Notchilous ladyrastafari's Avatar ladyrastafari is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Maison de L'Amitie, Palm Beach
    Posts
    46,039
    Credits
    181,803,372
    parenting is a delicate balance between giving autonomy and setting rules and boundaries..

    some things are non negotiable.. no you cannot go to bed without brushing your teeth.. but yes you can help choose the outfit to wear when we go out (if it's nowhere that requires formality)- and it's also a lesson in appropriate dress etc.

    no you can't stay up all hours of the night during the school week but on weekends you can stay up later...
    no you can't be rude or disrespectful when speaking to adults, but yes you are allowed to voice concerns, ask questions and understand why things are done a particular way..

    i have one or two friends that wanna be super friend and always hadda be stressed.. not me and that..
    jamaicangirl likes this.
    Never waste your time trying to explain who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you.

    Velvet Glove. Iron Fist

    mi style still sharp .....u a A-Minor and dem a B-Flat

  5. #5
    Taj
    Loyalty to Loyalty Taj's Avatar Taj is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Fix up, look sharp!
    Posts
    48,960
    Credits
    42,728,994
    the sweden one was interesting esp the link between national attitude and business org. style.
    “A sharp knife never proclaims it’s sharpness to the world…but the first to fall against it becomes it’s advocate.”

    You can put any face behind a mask but be careful cos someone else might be pretending. You might not be the only one with a secret -- Cassie/Gretel

  6. #6
    Registered User BacchanalDiva's Avatar BacchanalDiva is offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In Oshun's embrace
    Posts
    15,824
    Credits
    8,696,811
    Quote Originally Posted by Poca View Post

    punishing children does not make them behave in the long run

    "pick their battles" and communicate better with the children


    Swedish parenting owes a lot to the country's emphasis on democracy and equality.


    "Swedish children are very outspoken and can express their opinions,"
    I agree with the child centered approach and do believe that it leads to rearing more confident, leadership ready individuals. I can't get with the no boundaries thing though; I also believe in the firm door analogy the French one spoke of. I don't think any extreme is a good idea and also, parenting style is ok to change depending on the child as an individual, stage of development etc. I also don't buy the French kids are so well behaved AT ALL because I know way too many French families and their children. Heck the problem child in my daughter's class last year was a French boy (allowances made cause he was dropped into an English speaking environment and couldn't' speak a lick of English at the beginning of the year but he 's a bad azz regardless lol) I know no Swedes so can't really say if what they report about their kids is true.
    "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses." -Plato

    "god is the deification of a culture."
    -Dr Yosef ben-Jochannan

  7. #7
    Registered User Poca's Avatar Poca is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    home
    Posts
    4,202
    Credits
    87,553,099
    I heard that swedes kids are quite bad and the authorities are really serious about the no hitting kid ever. some months ago a father was fine something like 5000 Kr for threatening to pull his daughter's hair. They were at the supermarket and the kid was misbehaving, he threatened her and someone called the police for him.
    Chen ki japé pa mòde!

  8. #8
    Registered User bktrini305's Avatar bktrini305 is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    1,901
    Credits
    40,919,598
    Its good to raise kids to be autonomous and confident. But happiness, I mean this in a psychological way now, is correlated most strongly with being grateful. And to me a rude child is ungrateful, and thus cannot be happy. Plus i can't watch a child telling me any old thing. Somehow, that's the balance I'd strive for. Always asking the child's opinion and so on, but never being interrupted or disobeyed.
    This can't be the end.
    I'll see you again.
    Carnival Prayer

  9. #9
    Boonoonoonoos jamaicangirl's Avatar jamaicangirl is offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    6,827
    Credits
    11,633,899
    I know many French families and French/ French-American children and the children are better behaved just because they are more European- more old world, more sophisticated and more "don't rock the boat." The spankings have nothing to do with it, in my opinion. In fact, many of the French people that I know resent being abused by their parents and do not think that it was constructive.

    Sweden has the right plan. There is no reason to hit a child. You have to train her/him with words. What is going to happen when the kid grows up? Who is going to beat them to get them to do their office work or to take care of their home or do anything? They have to learn to govern themselves.

    Sweden's biggest problem (I have never been there and have met fewer than five Swedish people in my life) seems to be lack of nuclear families and a very disorganized definition of family. There is a high "unwed mother" rate and lack of clearly defined Parent vs. Child roles. This was mentioned in the article. The single parent issue is only relevant because you get the idea that you are living with your friend/equal instead of with your mother/parent.

  10. #10
    Registered User Lappo's Avatar Lappo is offline
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    latèrrè
    Posts
    1,014
    Credits
    12,771,355
    should kids get beat-yes.

    abused-no.

  11. #11
    Registered User Poca's Avatar Poca is offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    home
    Posts
    4,202
    Credits
    87,553,099
    In this part of the world religion is really not important.

    Their lack of ability to set rules and expectations for their kids is because they do believe that everyone is equal (kids included). They do not like to enforce or impose on each other. However, where they go wrong is that kids by their nature needs boundaries and clear consequences when they are and aren't met. Raising kids without consequences leads to the kinds of children reigning there these days.

    This is a big culture class with their immigrant population.




    Quote Originally Posted by jamaicangirl View Post
    I know many French families and French/ French-American children and the children are better behaved just because they are more European- more old world, more sophisticated and more "don't rock the boat." The spankings have nothing to do with it, in my opinion. In fact, many of the French people that I know resent being abused by their parents and do not think that it was constructive.

    Sweden has the right plan. There is no reason to hit a child. You have to train her/him with words. What is going to happen when the kid grows up? Who is going to beat them to get them to do their office work or to take care of their home or do anything? They have to learn to govern themselves.

    Sweden's biggest problem (I have never been there and have met fewer than five Swedish people in my life) seems to be lack of nuclear families and a very disorganized definition of family. There is a high "unwed mother" rate and lack of clearly defined Parent vs. Child roles. This was mentioned in the article. The single parent issue is only relevant because you get the idea that you are living with your friend/equal instead of with your mother/parent.
    Chen ki japé pa mòde!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •