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Old 10-28-2011, 01:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The Dragon and the Euro. China's possible reign over Europe?

Couldnt upload this so I paraphrased the following:

France’s president Sarkozy has asked the East, particularly China, for financially backing to raise capital for the Euro zone’s increasing debt. This has come under scrutiny from many who fear that that China expects reciprocity, which might include overlooking their disregard to human rights and involvement in European politics. The appeal happened last night with Sarkozy and China’s president Hu Jintao present. The European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) has plans to raise their 440 billion Euros to one trillion Euros. Of course this is not without problems. If they decided to raise their capital by cutting dividends to shareholders who would want to invest when they get no share of the profit? Another problem is that China’s fellow BRIC nation has already declined to bail Euro out so relying on China seems inevitable. However, one problem dire than the rest is that the EFSF’s high rating in the world heavily relies on countries like Germany and France. If any of these countries have to fight their domestic woes – like France injecting money into its banks – then the EFSF would be affected.

While the desperate Euro zone chiefs might welcome the idea of China’s intervention, Britain seem fearful that their position in Europe and the China trade will be undermined. Britain has largely been kept out of the Brussels’ affair which, admittedly, seems fitting since they did not join the Euro.

(Paraphrased from Ian King, The Times newspaper, Friday 28th October 2011)

I sense that countries undermining Britain’s involvement will encourage our Chancellor Mr Osborne to form an alliance with other countries that that have a low status in the Euro like Britain.

Could the world really lie in the Dragon’s hands?
Although this may come to fruition for China, I believe the country still has a long way to go before “world domination” – meaning overtaking America as the most powerful nation. The reserves, for instance, are held in American dollars and China has yet to float its currency.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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china will never reign over any of these western country

not even US was able to do that
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capitaine View Post
china will never reign over any of these western country

not even US was able to do that
Maybe so but Europe arent looking for US for bail-out they are looking to China which, in the 90s, would have been hard to believe. China will definitely see that they get many things in return - a criticism of their government being one of them. Oh, how some racist/eurocentrics would be bashing their heads in at the sound of that!
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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China is putting itself in a powerful position, what the goin to do with the power remains to be seen...
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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excellent tred

lots of folks are sweating

personally I feel china has had this plan for decades and its working lil by little

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Old 10-28-2011, 03:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jaymaca View Post
Maybe so but Europe arent looking for US for bail-out they are looking to China which, in the 90s, would have been hard to believe. China will definitely see that they get many things in return - a criticism of their government being one of them. Oh, how some racist/eurocentrics would be bashing their heads in at the sound of that!
As long as china, is the producer of cheap good for Europe and america
they wont have any kind of deep influence over these country

and right now they are still more dependent on Europe and us than they are to china and it will take time for Chinese people to innovated they way out of that
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bhalistix View Post
China is putting itself in a powerful position, what the goin to do with the power remains to be seen...
they will be just another big power with a bigger economies but less cultural influence
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Not a big issue in my lowly opinion.
Germany, Holland and Italy are huge trading partners with China and with the high domestic demand in China it's in their interest to ensure the debt crisis in Europe is eased.

China imports measure close to its exports and there is, last I read, very high domestic deposits, so it's beneficial to them to maintain the near perfect trade balance as exists.

As for the human rights issue, that's no issue. It's an issue politicians awake to avoid the press saying they didn't awake a sleeping issue.
Britain is not going to make waves about it, not with billion dollar contracts at risk, and certainly not without economic guarantees from the US to mitigate against any falling out.
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capitaine View Post
As long as china, is the producer of cheap good for Europe and america
they wont have any kind of deep influence over these country

and right now they are still more dependent on Europe and us than they are to china and it will take time for Chinese people to innovated they way out of that
That is a means to an end, that does not mean China will be doing that for ever.China has learned from companies like GM , in which they have ''car manufacturing plants in foreign countries (one of them is Ethiopia I believe).
China is not in a deficit.China may be pirating companies like Apple but how else can they learn.
China's economy is booming and they have a growing middle class.

China is in no way dependent on Europe or the US. It is China who has bought 1 to 2 trillion dollars of the US debt.

Originally Posted by Capitaine View Post
china will never reign over any of these western country

not even US was able to do that
Ever heard of the Marshall Plan ?Who has the greatest voting power over the IMF.Didn't countries like Greece and Macedonia just need a loan from the WBG.
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Steupz View Post
Not a big issue in my lowly opinion.
Germany, Holland and Italy are huge trading partners with China and with the high domestic demand in China it's in their interest to ensure the debt crisis in Europe is eased.

China imports measure close to its exports and there is, last I read, very high domestic deposits, so it's beneficial to them to maintain the near perfect trade balance as exists.

As for the human rights issue, that's no issue. It's an issue politicians awake to avoid the press saying they didn't awake a sleeping issue.
Britain is not going to make waves about it, not with billion dollar contracts at risk, and certainly not without economic guarantees from the US to mitigate against any falling out.
Britain are indifferent to the China appeal since David Cameron and Hu Jintao were already in "you-scratch-my-back-and-i'll-scratch-yours" talks. I think the big issue that Britain will face is their waning presence in the European parliament, if they really had any to begin with. Germany and France have the upper hand in the game thanks to the EFSF so George Osborne is trying to "fight" for Britain's say in all of this. 17 countries (in the EU) against one country (Britain/England) - not a hard choice if you ask me.
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jaymaca View Post
Britain are indifferent to the China appeal since David Cameron and Hu Jintao were already in "you-scratch-my-back-and-i'll-scratch-yours" talks. I think the big issue that Britain will face is their waning presence in the European parliament, if they really had any to begin with. Germany and France have the upper hand in the game thanks to the EFSF so George Osborne is trying to "fight" for Britain's say in all of this. 17 countries (in the EU) against one country (Britain/England) - not a hard choice if you ask me.
The biggest problem with Europe right now, is not that they lack the money to recapitalize their banks and resolve the issue of credit, with Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal

what they want to do is to spread the issue of bad asset, and debt obligation to as much country as possible outside Europe, so that they can leverage on their debt without bringing the Euro currency down, which could hurt much of these country that depend on consumption to drive their economies up

and it is also the reason why China want to buy their assets and bad obligation, because they do not want a weak euro currency, as they depend on a strong euro to support their export driving industries through consumption from the same countries

If the euro decline, China economies output will fall as well
Remember, Europe is the largest economy and the technology monster of the world
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:52 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NaturalBornRidah View Post
That is a means to an end, that does not mean China will be doing that for ever.China has learned from companies like GM , in which they have ''car manufacturing plants in foreign countries (one of them is Ethiopia I believe).
China is not in a deficit.China may be pirating companies like Apple but how else can they learn.
China's economy is booming and they have a growing middle class.

China is in no way dependent on Europe or the US. It is China who has bought 1 to 2 trillion dollars of the US debt.



Ever heard of the Marshall Plan ?Who has the greatest voting power over the IMF.Didn't countries like Greece and Macedonia just need a loan from the WBG.
of course not

If you compare the Chinese economy using PPP, their economy is already larger than that of the United States.

The problem is that China will never exceed these countries in terms of influence, by doing the same thing as these countries have been doing for ​​over century

they will have to bring something new in terms of culture and innovation to the table to succeed, and that is not something easy.
It will requires a lot of innovation in terms of culture, social development, and good business practices for other country to want to follow.

and China will have to work hard to develop their financial markets, to conduct their own consumption

Last edited by Capitaine; 10-29-2011 at 10:56 AM..
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Old 10-29-2011, 05:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capitaine View Post
of course not

If you compare the Chinese economy using PPP, their economy is already larger than that of the United States.

The problem is that China will never exceed these countries in terms of influence, by doing the same thing as these countries have been doing for ​​over century

they will have to bring something new in terms of culture and innovation to the table to succeed, and that is not something easy.
It will requires a lot of innovation in terms of culture, social development, and good business practices for other country to want to follow.

and China will have to work hard to develop their financial markets, to conduct their own consumption
China definitely has not surpassed the US ,they may have a better PPP but it would probably take about 20 more years for them to surpass the US economically.
China already does have a strong influence, they have the most pull in Asia.

Many countries like Brazil,Indonesia,Chile,Argentina,countries in Africa,and Mexico have opened their markets to China.The US only has influence in culture because it is the most military capable country on the planet ,in the 1800s during the Victorian era the UK was the most influential in culture the because it was powerful.And even certain aspects of Chinese culture have been permeating through out the world.As for innovation I agree,but China is getting there.

Last edited by NaturalBornRidah; 10-29-2011 at 05:29 PM..
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NaturalBornRidah View Post
China definitely has not surpassed the US ,they may have a better PPP but it would probably take about 20 more years for them to surpass the US economically.
China already does have a strong influence, they have the most pull in Asia.

Many countries like Brazil,Indonesia,Chile,Argentina,countries in Africa,and Mexico have opened their markets to China.The US only has influence in culture because it is the most military capable country on the planet ,in the 1800s during the Victorian era the UK was the most influential in culture the because it was powerful.And even certain aspects of Chinese culture have been permeating through out the world.As for innovation I agree,but China is getting there.
Maybe USA has the most capable military but the Chinese Army is the largest employer in the world. With over two million people in military, this clearly outnumbers the USA military so doesnt that say something? When I went to China you could see the military "die-for-our-country" spirit even in the local police officers/security guards and because of this, one can easily mistaken these police officers for men in the military. In other words, the US would not dream of testing these men.

I agree with Chinese culture having relative impact on the world. The four great creations came out of China: Paper, Printing, Compass and more importantly gunpowder. There are also many Chinese people around the world who have brought their culture along with them.
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:40 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capitaine View Post
of course not

If you compare the Chinese economy using PPP, their economy is already larger than that of the United States.

The problem is that China will never exceed these countries in terms of influence, by doing the same thing as these countries have been doing for ​​over century

they will have to bring something new in terms of culture and innovation to the table to succeed, and that is not something easy.
It will requires a lot of innovation in terms of culture, social development, and good business practices for other country to want to follow.
and China will have to work hard to develop their financial markets, to conduct their own consumption
Why does it require innovation in terms of culture and social development, may I ask? Can you expound on this? It sounds very textbook to me.

Arguably, the jump to the world's second largest economy was unprecendented to some but inevitable some like me. They have lowered the rate on their yuan currency, thus making their exports cheaper. Mao Zedong once said: "The more Chinese, the better" and now they have the biggest population in the world and the second biggest economy. With economic reform they managed to lift 500 million of their people out of poverty. They have achieved this position with a lack of innovation. Their asian counterparts like Japan are clearly more innovative but have slipped to third place when China overtook them this year.

One of the factors holding them back from "world domination" is their financial markets, this I agree with. The Yuan currency has yet to have any substantial impact in the foreign exchange market because most of the reserves are in dollars like the ones the Chinese government holds.

To achieve number one spot is obviously not going to be an easy task - maybe a decade more, or so - but I dont think its impossible.
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