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Thread: Connections between Calypso Mento Ska Rocksteady Reggae Dancehall & Soca!

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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Post Connections between Calypso Mento Ska Rocksteady Reggae Dancehall & Soca!

    Are there any connections? And if so when/where were they strongest in influencing a change?

    This thread is mainly for Jaymaca to give feedback but others can contribute provided they don't try to derail the thread with any small-minded Trini vs Jam talk. This thread is not to try to belittle either T&T's or Jamaica's great contribution to Caribbean music but simply to show where the connections are if any.

    I was having this conversation in another thread with Jaymaca but since this was not the topic of the original thread we were posting in, I decided to create a new thread to focus on this topic in a constructive/informative manner.

    So here goes......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymaca View Post
    And Soca came indirectly from Compas, Zouk, Cadence, Funk, Soul etc.
    And Jazz came indirectly from Cuban music
    And Dominican Merengue came indirectly from Haitian music
    And Rapso/RaggaSoca came indirectly from Toasting
    HipHop came indirectly from Dub/toasting
    etc.
    And these genres all indirectly came from...Africa!

    Calypso had a major influence on Mento, yes, but it did not have a major influence on Ska or Reggae. American music did. The MentoCalypso line is blurred because no one actually knows when Mento started. Jamaican folk tunes were incorporated into Calypso (sly mongoose by lord invader) and Edric Connor sang many jamaican folk songs. Calypso was adopted by Mento musicians because it was popular at the time but it did not change the Mento genre. In fact Mento was first recorded in the fifties because of its similarities to Calypso.
    Oh I see Jaymaca is looking for an argument because he/she enjoys the inter-island banter!

    Regards your statement that Soca came indirectly from Compas, Zouk, Cadence, Funk, Soul etc; I would definitely remove Compa and Zouk from the list and put the two most important elements first which were Calypso and East Indian rhythms.
    The other musical elements were initially important but became less and less so as soca grew in popularity during the 70's. Soca was birthed around the same time that Cadence-lypso was also developed in Dominica and before Zouk came along.

    Regards Rapso/RaggaSoca coming indirectly from Toasting I would say that is the case for ragga-soca but it is definitely not the case for Rapso.
    Rapso is basically the poetry of calypso i.e. reciting calypso poetry style rather than singing it and was established as a militant conscious style in 1971 during the Black Power Movement era of the early 70's in T&T before toasting became an established popular part of reggae music. In fact reggae was not established yet at the time that Rapso was established as a new genre in T&T as you were still in the ska to rocksteady transition period when Rapso started.

    Your last paragraph about the relationship between Calypso, Mento and Ska I won't argue with too much other than to say that I believe Ska came about in its earliest stage by fusing local Jamaican mento with the popular Trinidadian Calypso & American Blue Beat music of the time.
    Last edited by Socapro; 04-10-2012 at 11:40 PM.
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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymaca View Post
    Im not looking for an argument, thank you. Irrespective of the importance of these genres to any degree, Soca, like other genres, was influenced by American music in its early stages. Ras Shorty introduces his new Soca genre as "the soul of Calypso" and there were evident Soul/Funk influences in that. There was a discussion about this before on IMIX; unfortunately, you might have missed the memo.

    Ska in its earliest stages was not influenced by Calypso. What elements of early Ska were Calypso? It was American music and Mento music (the skank riff for example). Please listen to the original "oh Carolina" song for more insight.

    Toasting actually came around in the 50s/60s when Jamaicans were toasting over American music.
    Trinidadians were not listening to Jamaicans toasting over American music in the 50s/60s. We already had our own music calypso that was just as popular as American music at that time and which was enabling our top calypso singers to go on music tours all over the Caribbean region as well as America and Europe.

    Why do you think so many top Trinidad calypsonians ended up in Jamaica during the Federation era? Because they were in popular demand and took the opportunity to go on tour all around the Caribbean region including Jamaica to sing and make a living as calypso entertainers.

    As I said before Ragga-Soca was inspired by Jamaican raggamuffin dancehall but not Rapso which was actually inspired by the Black Power Movement that swept Trinidad in the 70’s before Jamaican Dancehall Djing had made any kind of impact in Trinidad.

    Rapso is basically the poetry of calypso, i.e. reciting calypso in a more militant style rather than singing calypso in the traditional tourist friendly style.
    You can go here for more details on Rapso: The Rapso Thread!

    I agree with Soca being influence by Soul and Funk in its early days which is basically what I said; I removed Compas and Zouk from the list but left Cadence, Funk, Soul on the list and added Calypso and East Indian rhythms to the list.

    I think it is very debatable that Calypso did not have an influence on Ska in the earlies; that is not what I've heard from some of the old timers I know who are still alive.

    Check this out and then come back and tell me with a straight face that calypso did not have an influence on Ska in its early days!

    Lord Kitchener - Wife And Mother (late '50’s)


    Now listen to the Ska version.

    Lord Tanamo - Mothers Choice (Early 60's)


    Lord Brynner - Big Bamboo (Early 60's)


    Lord Creator - Big Bamboo (Ska Calypso Version)


    Lord Brynner - Congo War (1964)


    Lord Brynner - Teach Me To Ska (1964)



    As I said Ska came about by fusing Jamaican Mento, Trinidadian Calypso and American Blue Beat in the earlies and evolved from there.

    Also listen to the end of this interview with Sparrow where he talks about the connection between Calypso and Reggae.

    Mighty Sparrow (Interview) - Calypso as Mother music
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    Norman SWAGGERIFIC is offline
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    this argument is exhaustive.

    Calypso is one of the granddaddies of Caribbean music, Reggae came out of Ska/Rockseady, these earlier genres were influenced by Mento, Calypso and Soul/Jazz etc.

    Bob Marley alluded to this in one of his interviews. They talked about this on Dahved Levy's program this week.
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    Registered User Namey Namey is offline
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    Give it up, you all have that wonderful Soca music.
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    Norman SWAGGERIFIC is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namey Namey View Post
    Give it up, you all have that wonderful Soca music.
    the Caribbean has Soca, including Jamaica,

    Byron Lee, Fab 5, Beenie man, Busy Signal all come from Jamaica

    the Caribbean has Reggae

    Marlon Asher, Pressure, Collie Budz, Jamelody all come from other islands

    so take a rest with ur stupidity eh
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    Registered User Namey Namey is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWAGGERIFIC View Post
    the Caribbean has Soca, including Jamaica,

    Byron Lee, Fab 5, Beenie man, Busy Signal all come from Jamaica

    the Caribbean has Reggae

    Marlon Asher, Pressure, Collie Budz, Jamelody all come from other islands

    so take a rest with ur stupidity eh
    Just giving credit where credit is due.
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    Registered User BRIAN is offline
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    Can't believe you guys want to ally yourselves with the "black sheep/badboys" of the caribbean. I'd figure you'd want to keep a wide distance between us. Bajans would never do this.

    First things first, forget the label "Calypso/Kalypso" on those old Mento lps of the 50s & early 60s, (it's been fcuking up unnoo head for 60yrs.)it was part of the "eat a food" program (Calypso was the rage on the hotel circuit all across the caribbean) Though we can play Calypso, mostly what you were hearing was Mento. So now you can break the link about Calypso bleeding into whatever.......

    Ska was a by-product of Mento and 40s/50s R&B, mostly R&B. Musically the only group of people J'cans bow to are African American artists and musicians. They were dozens of American artists of the 50s, but this guy was huge.
    From R&B to Jamaican popular music - Entertainment - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 1, 2012

    Louis Jordan, slower pace R&B


    Louis Jordan A little faster pace



    This is (just one out of a bunch) what it sounded like when we made the transition to Ska.

    Theo Beckford



    I'm sure you guys will Google and Google till you find out that all those R&B guys were Trinis, but hey, god's a Trini ..so anything is possible.




    Oh by the way, no matter how many times you Google Ska, you will end up with same beginning. You guys must be glad VP is not Jamaican, unnoo would be murdered daily.
    Last edited by BRIAN; 04-12-2012 at 01:16 AM.

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    Registered User Tha Biz is offline
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    who listens to soca outside of carnival?

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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namey Namey View Post
    Just giving credit where credit is due.
    No one is trying to discredit or take anything away from Jamaica or from T&T for that matter, that is not what this thread is for.
    Didn't you read the intro to this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    This thread is mainly for Jaymaca to give feedback but others can contribute provided they don't try to derail the thread with any small-minded Trini vs Jam talk. This thread is not to try to belittle either T&T's or Jamaica's great contribution to Caribbean music but simply to show where the connections are if any.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Biz View Post
    who listens to soca outside of carnival?
    That is not the topic of this thread so please stick to the topic or refain from posting in this thread if you have nothing positive to contribute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    This thread is mainly for Jaymaca to give feedback but others can contribute provided they don't try to derail the thread with any small-minded Trini vs Jam talk. This thread is not to try to belittle either T&T's or Jamaica's great contribution to Caribbean music but simply to show where the connections are if any.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
    On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (91.6FM);
    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
    Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN View Post
    Can't believe you guys want to ally yourselves with the "black sheep/badboys" of the caribbean. I'd figure you'd want to keep a wide distance between us. Bajans would never do this.

    First things first, forget the label "Calypso/Kalypso" on those old Mento lps of the 50s & early 60s, (it's been fcuking up unnoo head for 60yrs.)it was part of the "eat a food" program (Calypso was the rage on the hotel circuit all across the caribbean) Though we can play Calypso, mostly what you were hearing was Mento. So now you can break the link about Calypso bleeding into whatever.......

    Ska was a by-product of Mento and 40s/50s R&B, mostly R&B. Musically the only group of people J'cans bow to are African American artists and musicians. They were dozens of American artists of the 50s, but this guy was huge.
    From R&B to Jamaican popular music - Entertainment - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 1, 2012

    Louis Jordan, slower pace R&B


    Louis Jordan A little faster pace



    This is (just one out of a bunch) what it sounded like when we made the transition to Ska.

    Theo Beckford



    I'm sure you guys will Google and Google till you find out that all those R&B guys were Trinis, but hey, god's a Trini ..so anything is possible.




    Oh by the way, no matter how many times you Google Ska, you will end up with same beginning. You guys must be glad VP is not Jamaican, unnoo would be murdered daily.
    Didn't I say that this is not meant to be a small-minded T&T vs Jam thread?
    Some of you guys just can't help yourselves with these T&T vs Jam vs this island vs that island small-minded arguments that is spewed here on Imix almost on a daily basis.

    Read the intro to my thread again and then come again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    This thread is mainly for Jaymaca to give feedback but others can contribute provided they don't try to derail the thread with any small-minded Trini vs Jam talk. This thread is not to try to belittle either T&T's or Jamaica's great contribution to Caribbean music but simply to show where the connections are if any.
    We are just exploring the historic connections in the music if any.
    This is not a T&T vs JA argument and I don't want it to head down that road, many thanks.

    So are you trying to say that are no connections between calypso and ska in these early ska recordings that I also posted earlier in the thread then?

    Lord Kitchener - Wife And Mother (late '50’s)


    Now listen to the Ska version.

    Lord Tanamo - Mothers Choice (Early 60's)


    Lord Brynner - Big Bamboo (Early 60's)


    Lord Creator - Big Bamboo (Ska Calypso Version)


    Anyway back to the topic at hand, check this out...

    Calypso, Jazz and Gospel are all mother music’s and when you examine the history all go back to the same roots, the slaves who were brought from Africa as a way of enduring what they were going tru and fighting for freedom. So all this small minded talk about Jamaica now bowing to Trinidad because we are discussing the historic musical connections between T&T and Jamaican music is just petty small-mindedness.

    Here is an early track showing the close connection between Calypso and Jazz music.

    Lord Kitchener - Bebop Calypso (Early 1950's)


    The facts are that mento was more of a Jamaican folk music played mostly at the hotels in Jamaica for the entertainment of tourists and is basically a Jamaican version of Calypso that was strongly influenced by the international popularity of calypso in the 30’s, 40’s & 50’s.

    Calypso was first recorded in 1912 while mento was first recorded in the 1950’s.
    If we understand and respect the mother and child connection in music then we can’t deny the direct connection between calypso mento and ska. The evidence is there for all to hear in the music anyway from the early recordings.

    In a similar way there is a direct connection between Trinidad's Calypso and the music brought to Trinidad by many of the settler’s that came from the French-Creole speaking islands like Martinique and Dominica and in fact early calypsos were all sung in French-Creole before a law was passed in Trinidad in the early 1900's that they must now be sung in English for radio airplay.

    Trying to deny the truth and historical connections in our Caribbean music is almost like trying to deny the contributions of some of our ancestors and some of the connections which eventually lead back to Africa in mostly cases.
    Last edited by Socapro; 04-12-2012 at 07:16 AM.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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  13. #13
    Got Kompa? tikreyol's Avatar tikreyol is offline
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    You can agree that Cadence contributed but you removed Compas and Zouk? What are you talking about? Cadence is Konpa!
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    Registered User Namey Namey is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    No one is trying to discredit or take anything away from Jamaica or from T&T for that matter, that is not what this thread is for.
    Didn't you read the intro to this thread?
    Really don't care, how many times are you going bring up this subject, what are you hoping to accomplish?
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    Registered User SKBai1991's Avatar SKBai1991 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikreyol View Post
    You can agree that Cadence contributed but you removed Compas and Zouk? What are you talking about? Cadence is Konpa!
    lol you just started a war
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