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Otorongo · 06-21-2007, 09:24 AM

from the Miami Herald's web page. There are several multimedia presentations and articles.

The Link: Afro-Latin Americans

sexycuban · 06-21-2007, 09:43 AM

Now i know why those women from DR used to act like I was freaking crazy to not put a perm in my hair.....that is so freaking sad . Thanks OTO very interesting articles

Nisha7 · 06-21-2007, 10:48 AM

Working on a similar research project now...looking forward to reading it.

Canalero · 06-21-2007, 10:49 AM

Tanks for da link!!!!!!!

VINCYPOWA · 06-21-2007, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Otorongo

from the Miami Herald's web page. There are several multimedia presentations and articles.

The Link: Afro-Latin Americans

So this is the ARTICLE my BROTHER was TALKING about.

Canalero · 06-21-2007, 10:59 AM

Hmmmm..

Nicaragua's black population is the largest in Central America, but there is only one black member in its National Assembly, Raquel Dixon Brautigam, who was elected last year.

Canalero · 06-21-2007, 11:00 AM

Even more intersting about Nica:

Much of the contemporary movement along the coast came from men who died long ago -- Martin Luther King Jr. and Bob Marley. King's unyielding message of equality and Marley's social lyrics were delivered here starting in the 1970s by kids who got jobs on cruise ships and brought back books and music.

wow

Nisha7 · 06-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Canalero

Hmmmm..

You vex cus you get leff out...BTW, I think I have something for you.

Canalero · 06-21-2007, 11:07 AM

Yo this map is nice!!

WOI

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans

For example:

Blacks in Costa Rica are primarily descended from migrants from the British Caribbean brought to the country at the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries to work on railroad construction and banana fields. Most of the laborers are belived to have come from Jamaica and St. Kitts, with some from Barbados and other islands

PTM · 06-21-2007, 11:56 AM

Great thread. I intend to read every bit of the article.

Bake n Shark · 06-21-2007, 12:03 PM

The DR....wow.

I know things were bad, but good god! One thing I have always loved about DR people is the fact that uniformly, they are the darkest of the the latinos in this region...which is to say you don't see as much color variance across the population. Man I didn't know there was so much detestation for things 'black'.

The hours spent on hair extensions and painful chemical straightening treatments are actually an expression of nationalism, said Ginetta Candelario, who studies the complexities of Dominican race and beauty at Smith College in Massachusetts. And to some of the women who relax their hair, it's simply a way to have soft manageable hair in the Dominican Republic's stifling humidity.

"It's not self-hate," Candelario said. "Going through that is to love yourself a lot. That's someone saying, ‘I am going to take care of me.' It's nationalist, it's affirmative and celebrating self."

I mean...look at this crock of shit^^^^^ and this from an educated woman here in the US. I mean, other caribbean countries don't have "stifling humidity"? Since when having to "take care of me" means straightening one's hair?

Then this next pile of manure:

Asked if a black Dominican woman can be considered beautiful in her country, Hernández leapt to her feet.

"You should see how they come in here with their big asses!'' she said, shuffling across her office with her arms extended behind her back, simulating an enormous rear-end. "They come in here thinking they are all that, and I think, 'doesn't she know she's not really pretty?' "

From another academic, Ramona Hernández, Director of the Dominican Studies Institute at City College in New York.

Just. Simply. Amazing.

Otorongo · 06-21-2007, 12:10 PM

To add to the DR controversy. Not an excuse, but an understanding of both why there is less a sense of Blackness and why there has been a revival for many of a sense of indigenousness.

Forgive the repetitiousness, but I conflated to older posts of mine.

It isn't always denial of African ancestry per se, as a negative attitude that many have is because of the historical relationship with Haiti. In fact, many do not deny African Ancestry as much as they refuse to be called Black. Not all Dominicans dislike being called Black. In fact, many that descend from Haitians or Afro-Americans do call themselves Black as well as many Dominicans per se. Just go to Samana.

The real animosity with the term Black or more specifically Negro comes from history or more likely the perception of it. Two reasons usually pop up.

Dominicans descend from Spaniards and Mulattos from the Spanish side of St. Domingue as well as Mulattos who fled to Santo Domingo.

When Haiti was fighting for independence the Mulattoes and Africans fought together and also competed against each other. At one point it got bloody with the War of Knives. Dessalines massacred a ton of mulattoes. Many fled to the Spanish side. So those descendants had an animosity towards Haitians. When Toussaint was ousted and Dessalines became Emperor, he set up a new constitution where ALL Haitians would be known as Blacks (That included the naturalized Germans and Polanders that refused to fight for Napoleon and the white women who stayed). When Haiti invaded the Spanish side repeatedly, the soldiers did what soldiers at war have always been famous for, rape and plunder. Not all, but memory tends to remember the negative. Just like in the US most Afro-Americans will not acknowledge that many of them descend from loving mixed marriages or relationships, not just the bad memories of rape. In the DR. There is a similar sentiment that the African Ancestry of many is due to rape from the Haitians so they do not wish to acknowledge it. So in the consciousness of the time, Blackness became equated with Haitianess, and too much African ancestry became equated with rape. Much like in the US with European ancestry. The fact though is that many did not descend from rape, just like in the US, but negative mythologies tend to aggrandize themselves and create antagonisms that last for centuries. So now you have a huge animosity towards Haitians by escaped mulatos, and a sense of hate of their own ancestry by many new mulatos who believe that their ancestry is due to rape (ignoring the same fact ignored in the USA, that there were a ton of loving relationships. Finally, No matter what the look, Haitians called themselves Blacks. And thus Dominicans did not. Dominicans have not been kind to Haitians in later periods either, doing their own massacres. But there you have the origins of the strong antagonism to associating with Black, which to them equated with Haitian. Many Dominicans probably don't even know the history of their antagonism to the term, but they are raised to despise Haitians many times which they equate as Black even if they look identical many times. Many have forgotten the reason, but still have kept the antagonism they were raised with.

So see, in the DR it is a much more complex story than racism, as many Dominicans do recognize freely their African ancestry, but they specifically do not want to recognize any ties with Haiti which has from the get go stated it's identity as Black.

Otorongo · 06-21-2007, 12:14 PM

I asked Lynne Guitar how many Dominicans claim Indio:

From: Lynne Guitar [mailto:lynneguitar@yahoo.com] I wish I knew, Jaime, but it would take a lot of time and research to find out. I would guess that the number would be very few, for there is no social, political, or economic advantage to claiming to be "indio," in fact, quite the opposite, for to be "indio" is synonymous with being "stupid" and "gullible." Also, the Dominican teachers and school books hit hard on extinction for the Taino--most Dominicans accept the word of the "authorities" without question, even when their parents and grandparents use terms and concepts that have come down to them via the Taino.

Jorge Estevez Taino Testimony Caribbean Amerindian Centrelink
Jorge Estevez from Laguna Salada, Cibao, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

My name is Jorge Estevez, my family comes from a town in the Dominican Republic known today as "Laguna Salada" (salted Lagoon) but part of it is still called "Jaibon". At the turn of the century, the whole town was known as "Guabay". Jaibon is in the "Cibao" region of the Island.

All my family came from the campo (country side). Some family members have never left the campo and are still there today. We immigrated to the U.S. in 1961. I was left behind with my father and did not make it back to New York until I was 5 years old. We settled in the Inwood section of Upper Manhattan.

From early on, being one of the few Dominican families in the area, I became aware of how distinct we were from the other people in the neighborhood. We had different words for many things that other Latinos had, for example, we would say "un chin" as apposed to un poquito, or Auyama for calabasa, himagua instead of twins, ciguato instead of podrido, etc., and this among other things became a source of pride, in who we are and where we came from, for me.

On Saturday mornings my mother and grandmother told stories of our campo that fascinated me. There were stories of "Ciguapas," creatures that lived in the woods and had long hair and inverted feet. There were the stories of brave Indians who would rather die than succumb to the Spanish. Women whom my family believed were beautiful were always compared to Anacaona, a Taino Cacika (chief) who was murdered by the Spanish. My mother always maintained that bravery and jealousy were the two things that ruled an Indian’s life. My mother would put us to sleep with songs with Indian themes, one in particular she created from an old Cuban poem dedicated to the Taino.

My grandmother always told us that we were Indio. Even when I pointed out to her that we had family members who were black, she would in turn point out the ones that looked Indian or Spanish. To her it did not matter how mixed we were, because we had a history in Jaibon and that history was ultimately Indian. My mother on the other hand always told us that we were Indian and Black, and although she never used the word Taino to describe us, she did use Indio often. When I wanted to know about our African heritage she would just raise her shoulders and tell me she did not know what that was, but if it was anything like the Haitians, then we were different. She never spoke in racist terms when it came To Afro- Haitian/Dominicans because she recognized them as being a part of who we are as well. Her knowledge of the campo however was incredible as was her assertion of our connection to these things.

Some tales involved family members who had strange powers, and could shape-shift. My grandmother’s uncle, Don Choro was said to be able to change into any animal or plant. Other stories included "Botijas" (dreams) in which Indians would bring you messages or point out where buried treasure was hidden.

Of all the things we learned, nothing compared to "Casabe" and the planting of food crops and medicines. They spoke of "tua-tua" and how it could only be picked at certain times of the day, but that it was a great cure for diarrhea. Guanabana leaves were great for headaches, and so on. Yagua and Cana were the best for making Bohios (thatched roof houses), and guano was good for weaving Hamacas, arganas, and macuotos. "Cayucos" were a type of cactus that produced a fruit called "yaso" and it was made into a drink, as was the "behuco de Indio" that was used for "mabi".

The Casabe is made from the bitter yucca, which is poisonous. When we made casabe my mother would tell us that the best utensil to spread the yuca flour on the griddle was the bottom shell of a Hicotea (fresh water turtle). This always bothered me because I always liked keeping turtles in the house, but my mother would only allow land turtles, not the water kind, because she insisted they brought bad luck. When I questioned her as to why it brought bad luck, she just didn’t know. All she knew was that her grandparents in the campo always maintained that these animals should not be kept in the home.

Years later I read a Taino creation story from a book and realized why she had this taboo. According to the story the spirit being Deminan Caracarcol had children with a fresh water turtle, and these children became the first people, so in essence the turtle was a symbol of our mother and our ancestors never ate her flesh for that reason. It was then that I understood why my mother perpetuated a taboo with out even knowing why. After 500 years of Christianity, it is truly amazing how certain taboos and traditions have remained. Owls for example are considered messengers of death in the Dominican Republic. Many Native people in this Hemisphere also have this same perception of owls. In Europe the owl is seen as a symbol of wisdom.

I remember how once, while my mother was making casabe and telling me stories, my mind drifted back in time, and I wondered if maybe 500 years ago there was some other little boy watching his mother make casabe while listening to stories of our homeland, of heroic warriors and great shamans. At that moment I knew that our connection to these things are strong and it is the root of who we are and defines us as a people.

For me it boils down to where I come from. I identify with the roots of our culture in the Caribbean. I am extremely proud of our heritage. So when I am asked where I come from, I always answer: I am Taino from the Dominican Republic, from the town of Jaibon.

Also from Jorge:

Baracutay12@aol.com wrote:
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:51 PM
Hello, Max Forte forwarded your email to me.
As for your inquiry, yes there have been two, although very limited, DNA studies done in the Dominican Republic.
The first were conducted by an Italian company along with the Late Dr. Luna Calderon. These studies were focused in the Barahona region. Of the 29 samples taken (all from people displaying mostly African heritage) 10 had Native American Mitochondrial DNA.

In the second, Professor Juan Martinez Cruzado of Puerto Rico took 196 samples and of these 33 percent had Native American MTDNA. What should be noted is that in previous studies in Puerto Rico where the population is 4 million people, 800 samples were taken and 61 percent of these were Indian. The DR has over 9 million people so a much higher representative number of samples must be obtained before any conclusion can be made.
That said there are a few things that are clear though:
(1) the question as to whether or not there is Native descent in the DR has been answered and the answer is yes.
(2) The samples in the DR are Haplo groups A and C. The C haplo groups and types match the Puerto Rican C group. But the Haplo group A does not match the Puerto Rican A. This implies that the Haplo group A in the DR is from an older population that mixed with the Arawakan speaking peoples that entered the region some 3 thousand years ago.

I took a Bio-geographical DNA test, one that gives percentages of mixture. I tested positive for all three, except that my Native American Markers were so high that it implied that my ancestors were "pure" up to 5 generations ago. Not bad for a supposedly extinct people!

I actually took the test three times because at first I was not at all convinced that such a thing was possible.

On my first test which was called the 2.0 DNA print test My percentages were 29% Native American, 39% African and 32% Caucasian. It was this first test that confirmed for me what my grandmother always said about our families’ descent. She claimed that her grandmother and all the people of the place I come from in the DR were pure Indians. So since I had 29% Indian that means my mother would have perhaps twice as much and so on.
But then I took an updated version of the test, 2.5 , which goes deeper into the genome and this one revealed that I was 42 percent Indian.
One thing though. I think that as important as the tests are, they are also a bit misleading. I think that Identity is more about culture than genes. The reason why I have always identified with Native is because of the campesino culture which is very Native in the DR.
At the end of these tests I am still as Indian as I was at birth. The thing is does confirm however is that our history in the Caribbean must be re-written. That the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact with the Spanish is just about the biggest myth ever created and we in the Caribbean bought that side of the story, hook line and sinker!

If you have any further questions please contact me at this email address.
Thank you
Jorge

Nisha7 · 06-21-2007, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bake n Shark

The DR....wow.

I know things were bad, but good god! One thing I have always loved about DR people is the fact that uniformly, they are the darkest of the the latinos in this region...which is to say you don't see as much color variance across the population. Man I didn't know there was so much detestation for things 'black'.

I mean...look at this crock of shit^^^^^ and this from an educated woman here in the US. I mean, other caribbean countries don't have "stifling humidity"? Since when having to "take care of me" means straightening one's hair?

Then this next pile of manure:

From another academic, Ramona Hernández, Director of the Dominican Studies Institute at City College in New York.

Just. Simply. Amazing.

Havent gotten through the articles yet, but even in academia, one has to be careful of the views you express....that Hernandez woman is a lunatic to even say such a thing....hope she a faculty member to and got some tenure....

Bake n Shark · 06-21-2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Otorongo

To add to the DR controversy. Not an excuse, but an understanding of both why there is less a sense of Blackness and why there has been a revival for many of a sense of indigenousness.

Forgive the repetitiousness, but I conflated to older posts of mine.

It isn't always denial of African ancestry per se, as a negative attitude that many have is because of the historical relationship with Haiti. In fact, many do not deny African Ancestry as much as they refuse to be called Black. Not all Dominicans dislike being called Black. In fact, many that descend from Haitians or Afro-Americans do call themselves Black as well as many Dominicans per se. Just go to Samana.

The real animosity with the term Black or more specifically Negro comes from history or more likely the perception of it. Two reasons usually pop up.

Dominicans descend from Spaniards and Mulattos from the Spanish side of St. Domingue as well as Mulattos who fled to Santo Domingo.

When Haiti was fighting for independence the Mulattoes and Africans fought together and also competed against each other. At one point it got bloody with the War of Knives. Dessalines massacred a ton of mulattoes. Many fled to the Spanish side. So those descendants had an animosity towards Haitians. When Toussaint was ousted and Dessalines became Emperor, he set up a new constitution where ALL Haitians would be known as Blacks (That included the naturalized Germans and Polanders that refused to fight for Napoleon and the white women who stayed). When Haiti invaded the Spanish side repeatedly, the soldiers did what soldiers at war have always been famous for, rape and plunder. Not all, but memory tends to remember the negative. Just like in the US most Afro-Americans will not acknowledge that many of them descend from loving mixed marriages or relationships, not just the bad memories of rape. In the DR. There is a similar sentiment that the African Ancestry of many is due to rape from the Haitians so they do not wish to acknowledge it. So in the consciousness of the time, Blackness became equated with Haitianess, and too much African ancestry became equated with rape. Much like in the US with European ancestry. The fact though is that many did not descend from rape, just like in the US, but negative mythologies tend to aggrandize themselves and create antagonisms that last for centuries. So now you have a huge animosity towards Haitians by escaped mulatos, and a sense of hate of their own ancestry by many new mulatos who believe that their ancestry is due to rape (ignoring the same fact ignored in the USA, that there were a ton of loving relationships. Finally, No matter what the look, Haitians called themselves Blacks. And thus Dominicans did not. Dominicans have not been kind to Haitians in later periods either, doing their own massacres. But there you have the origins of the strong antagonism to associating with Black, which to them equated with Haitian. Many Dominicans probably don't even know the history of their antagonism to the term, but they are raised to despise Haitians many times which they equate as Black even if they look identical many times. Many have forgotten the reason, but still have kept the antagonism they were raised with.

So see, in the DR it is a much more complex story than racism, as many Dominicans do recognize freely their African ancestry, but they specifically do not want to recognize any ties with Haiti which has from the get go stated it's identity as Black.

I didn't read this...and I really don't care to read anything you have to say on what's going on in the DR. I'd rather hear/read the words of dark-skinned people actually living/from there...and the article provides plenty of that.

06-21-2007, 09:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
Otorongo Salsero de pura cepa Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 10,473 Credits: 713	Afro Latin Americans in Miami Herald from the Miami Herald's web page. There are several multimedia presentations and articles. The Link: Afro-Latin Americans

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06-21-2007, 09:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
sexycuban Registered User Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: TAMPA Posts: 644 Credits: 208	Now i know why those women from DR used to act like I was freaking crazy to not put a perm in my hair.....that is so freaking sad . Thanks OTO very interesting articles

06-21-2007, 10:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nisha7 Going home soon... Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Omnipresent Posts: 6,079 Credits: 5,421	Working on a similar research project now...looking forward to reading it.

06-21-2007, 10:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
Canalero Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Paraiso y Pedro Miguel Posts: 2,248 Credits: 10,438	Tanks for da link!!!!!!!

06-21-2007, 11:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
PTM Stolen from Africa Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The True North Strong and Free Posts: 1,795 Credits: 251	Great thread. I intend to read every bit of the article.

06-21-2007, 12:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
Otorongo Salsero de pura cepa Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 10,473 Credits: 713	To add to the DR controversy. Not an excuse, but an understanding of both why there is less a sense of Blackness and why there has been a revival for many of a sense of indigenousness. Forgive the repetitiousness, but I conflated to older posts of mine. It isn't always denial of African ancestry per se, as a negative attitude that many have is because of the historical relationship with Haiti. In fact, many do not deny African Ancestry as much as they refuse to be called Black. Not all Dominicans dislike being called Black. In fact, many that descend from Haitians or Afro-Americans do call themselves Black as well as many Dominicans per se. Just go to Samana. The real animosity with the term Black or more specifically Negro comes from history or more likely the perception of it. Two reasons usually pop up. Dominicans descend from Spaniards and Mulattos from the Spanish side of St. Domingue as well as Mulattos who fled to Santo Domingo. When Haiti was fighting for independence the Mulattoes and Africans fought together and also competed against each other. At one point it got bloody with the War of Knives. Dessalines massacred a ton of mulattoes. Many fled to the Spanish side. So those descendants had an animosity towards Haitians. When Toussaint was ousted and Dessalines became Emperor, he set up a new constitution where ALL Haitians would be known as Blacks (That included the naturalized Germans and Polanders that refused to fight for Napoleon and the white women who stayed). When Haiti invaded the Spanish side repeatedly, the soldiers did what soldiers at war have always been famous for, rape and plunder. Not all, but memory tends to remember the negative. Just like in the US most Afro-Americans will not acknowledge that many of them descend from loving mixed marriages or relationships, not just the bad memories of rape. In the DR. There is a similar sentiment that the African Ancestry of many is due to rape from the Haitians so they do not wish to acknowledge it. So in the consciousness of the time, Blackness became equated with Haitianess, and too much African ancestry became equated with rape. Much like in the US with European ancestry. The fact though is that many did not descend from rape, just like in the US, but negative mythologies tend to aggrandize themselves and create antagonisms that last for centuries. So now you have a huge animosity towards Haitians by escaped mulatos, and a sense of hate of their own ancestry by many new mulatos who believe that their ancestry is due to rape (ignoring the same fact ignored in the USA, that there were a ton of loving relationships. Finally, No matter what the look, Haitians called themselves Blacks. And thus Dominicans did not. Dominicans have not been kind to Haitians in later periods either, doing their own massacres. But there you have the origins of the strong antagonism to associating with Black, which to them equated with Haitian. Many Dominicans probably don't even know the history of their antagonism to the term, but they are raised to despise Haitians many times which they equate as Black even if they look identical many times. Many have forgotten the reason, but still have kept the antagonism they were raised with. So see, in the DR it is a much more complex story than racism, as many Dominicans do recognize freely their African ancestry, but they specifically do not want to recognize any ties with Haiti which has from the get go stated it's identity as Black.

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