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Thread: Cadence Lypso and Kompa

  1. #16
    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    Let's see, who should I listen to regards Calypso's influence on the development of other Caribbean music genres during the 30's, 40's, 50's & 60's? Someone like the great Mighty Sparrow who was alive during that period, listening to and singing music from all over the world and who toured the Caribbean and the world and would have seen and heard the music evolution first hand for himself or someone like you who I don't know from Adam and who possibly never sang any of the Caribbean music genres professionally in their life? Hummh... difficult choice!!
    When Sparrow talks about the influence of calypso, i believe that he refers to the English speaking countries. The music of Cuba, DR, Haiti, Matinik and Gwada did not spring from calypso. Also, there were calypso like forms throughout the region. Trini calypso simply influenced what already existed in those countries. Finally, influence goes both ways, T&T has absorbed cultural influences from its neighbors also.
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    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

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    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.BaZ View Post
    Conscious influence? I don't know but after all, we are all part of a great family.

    It reminds me Coupé Cloué, he was playing a type of Kompa called, Kompa Manba.In his youth, he never heard any type of African music...



    When he landed to Africa to perform the first time, he was surprised to see that the locals were playing music that was essentially the same than his!

    Soukouss was a bit faster but Coupe's music was sounded almost the same.
    Well, African music existed in Haiti. That konpa and Troubadou mizik should have so much African retentions shouldn't be surprising. Also, Ryco Jazz were in the region and they clearly Africanized the guitar playing in French Antillean music.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

  3. #18
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    When Sparrow talks about the influence of calypso, i believe that he refers to the English speaking countries. The music of Cuba, DR, Haiti, Matinik and Gwada did not spring from calypso. Also, there were calypso like forms throughout the region. Trini calypso simply influenced what already existed in those countries. Finally, influence goes both ways, T&T has absorbed cultural influences from its neighbors also.
    If there were calypso like forms throughout the region and those calypso like forms were there before the other genres evolved then you can't logically argue that those other genres did not evolve from those calypso like forms and also that were not influenced by calypso during its period of international popularity in the 30's, 40's, 50's & 60's.

    What Sparrow said makes a lot of logical sense and is not restricted to genres in the English Speaking islands. How many other English speaking islands outside of Trinidad developed commercially successful genres that were not placed or totally absorbed under the Calypso umbrella? I can’t think of any outside of Jamaica.

    And btw my argument was not that Kompa came directly from Calypso but that Calypso did influence it.
    This seems logical especially if it is hard to tell the difference between early Cadence-lypso and Kompa.

    Finally I never tried to argue that the influence don't go both ways and in fact I am fully aware that pioneer soca arranger Ed Watson regularly added rumba, mambo, meringue, cadence, highlife and other tropical styles to his soca arrangements in the late 70's & 80's before all the computerisation of instruments came in.
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    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    If there were calypso like forms throughout the region and those calypso like forms were there before the other genres evolved then you can't logically argue that those other genres did not evolve from those calypso like forms and also that were not influenced by calypso during its period of international popularity in the 30's, 40's, 50's & 60's.

    What Sparrow said makes a lot of logical sense and is not restricted to genres in the English Speaking islands. How many other English speaking islands outside of Trinidad developed commercially successful genres that were not placed or totally absorbed under the Calypso umbrella? I can’t think of any outside of Jamaica.

    And btw my argument was not that Kompa came directly from Calypso but that Calypso did influence it.
    This seems logical especially if it is hard to tell the difference between early Cadence-lypso and Kompa.

    Finally I never tried to argue that the influence don't go both ways and in fact I am fully aware that pioneer soca arranger Ed Watson regularly added rumba, mambo, meringue, cadence, highlife and other tropical styles to his soca arrangements in the late 70's & 80's before all the computerisation of instruments came in.
    The blues, plena, samba, beguine, bachata are often compared to calypso, yet they did not evolve from kaiso. Most of these genres have Afro Latin, or Afro creole roots, and calypso clearly shares the same origins. If anything, kaiso's roots are in the Afro creole traditions of the French Antilles. Again, Sparrow is clearly speaking of calypso's influence in the English speaking Caribbean. The genre owes more to the Spanish (Cuba) and Creole (Haiti, Matinik, Dominica) than vice versa. Right now, the biggest song to emerge from T&T in years is a Jamaican influenced dancehall tune. The music travels back and forth. The only mother music comes from Africa, and was spread primarily by Cubans, then Haitians.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

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    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    No one is saying that calypso did not have an influence beyond the English speaking Caribbean, it's just that you're overstating its impact on konpa. Or that you're looking for something that isn't there. Yes, the golden age calypso of the 50's probably did influence the compas direct bands, primarily in the brass playing, however, the main influences were from Cuba and the Dominican Republic. US jazz was also a source of influence. I have a CD of 50's material by Martha Jean Claude with several calypso songs. However, Martha's music was never hard core compas direct, but more of a fusion of local and international styles. Don't forget that the massive calypso hit, yellow bird, came from a Haitian tune. So, as you can see, the influence went both ways. The Cubans were less enamored by calypso, though I do have a calypso influenced Mozambique rhythm by Pello El Afrokan. The Cuban expatriate Mongo Santamaria also recorded some calypso influenced Latin jazz tunes.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

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    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    I think that I've posted Ti Manno's cover of the Mighty Sparrow's "Maria" before. Recently, I discovered a cover of "No Money, No Love" by konpa band Richard Duroseau et son Orchestre. Also, I think that the Mini All Stars based their cover of the Cameroonian song Amio, on Ed Watson's English version, rather than on the original. If you looking for soca's biggest impact outside of the English speaking Caribbean, then look to the Caribbean coast of Colombia. Soca was one of the root rhythms of champeta. The Colombians mixed in konpa, zouk, Congolese, highlife, and more, but soca was there from the beginning.

    Soca's influence on the development on afro colombian champeta
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

  7. #22
    Got Kompa? tikreyol's Avatar tikreyol is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post

    I have no reason to doubt what the Mighty Sparrow said as it is totally logical and only blind patriotism will have you deny that Calypso had an Influence on Haitians musicians. It may not have been as strong an influence as in other parts of the Caribbean but the influence definitely was there which is the reason why early Cadence-lypso sounds very close to Kompa, totally logical.
    There are threads that I have sent to you in another thread where you blew me off where we discussed why this was. I'd advise you to go back to them and READ through because I was actually trying to help you in the other threads when you were supposedly here to "learn."
    Ti sourit, ti sourit se nan pèlen ou rete
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    Bwa m kale tou wouj
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    Ou pa bezwen chandèl pou ou klere l

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    Earth Angel dollbabi's Avatar dollbabi is offline
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    Every other blasted thread...goodness. SMH.

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    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by dollbabi View Post
    Every other blasted thread...goodness. SMH.
    Your post is very vague. Can you elaborate regards to what you are referring to??
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    Got Kompa? tikreyol's Avatar tikreyol is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    Your post is very vague. Can you elaborate regards to what you are referring to??
    She's clearly referring to you and your constant need to argue with everyone.
    Ti sourit, ti sourit se nan pèlen ou rete
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    Bwa m kale tou wouj
    Kon piman , kon piman, Langyèt madivinèz
    Ou pa bezwen chandèl pou ou klere l

  11. #26
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikreyol View Post
    She's clearly referring to you and your constant need to argue with everyone.
    It takes two to argue and last time I checked you were the one acting insecure and picking arguments with me plus I was not addressing you here.
    Can you allow the woman to speak for herself if she cares to?
    Plus I have much more respect for her point of view than I do for yours even though she isn't always correct in some of her assumptions.
    Thank you.
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  12. #27
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    The blues, plena, samba, beguine, bachata are often compared to calypso, yet they did not evolve from kaiso. Most of these genres have Afro Latin, or Afro creole roots, and calypso clearly shares the same origins. If anything, kaiso's roots are in the Afro creole traditions of the French Antilles. Again, Sparrow is clearly speaking of calypso's influence in the English speaking Caribbean. The genre owes more to the Spanish (Cuba) and Creole (Haiti, Matinik, Dominica) than vice versa. Right now, the biggest song to emerge from T&T in years is a Jamaican influenced dancehall tune. The music travels back and forth. The only mother music comes from Africa, and was spread primarily by Cubans, then Haitians.
    Nope we have to agree to disagree on that one as Sparrow made it clear in the interview that in his experienced opinion, Calypso influenced the development of music genres in EVERY Caribbean Island. If he meant only the English speaking islands he would have said so or would have said SOME Caribbean islands.

    Also we are all in agreement that Calypso has African, French & Spanish roots but I disagree that the Spanish influence came more from Cuba than it did from our next door neighbour Venezuela especially in Calypso's backing music developmental years during the early part of the 20th century.
    Lionel Belasco whose Orchestra backed many of the earliest Calypso recordings was very strongly influenced by Venezuelan music in many of his Calypsonian backings and instrumentals.

    The Lionel Belasco Orchestra - Sally You Not Ashamed


    Even though it was created before, the official birth of calypso recordings was 1912, when Lovey's String Band recorded the first identifiably calypso genre song while visiting New York City. In 1914, the second calypso song was recorded, this time in Trinidad, by chantwell Julian Whiterose, better known as the Iron Duke and famous stick fighter. Jules Sims would also record vocal calypsos. The majority of these calypsos of the World War I era were instrumentals by Lovey and Lionel Belasco. Perhaps due to the constraints of the wartime economy, no recordings of note were produced until the late 1920s and early 1930s, when the "golden era" of calypso would cement the style, form, and phrasing of the music.

    PS:
    Also if you are referring to Bunji's "Differentology" as Jamaican influenced we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Bunji's background and singing style is Ragga Soca but his singing has become less and less Jamaican influenced and more Trinidadian in recent years. Plus the producer Sheriff who created the music for "Differentology" and then asked Bunji to voice it was clearly influenced more by the recent Island Pop Soca fusion trend going on in Trinidad than by Dancehall. The reality is that Ragga Soca is currently a fading soca style in Trinidad.
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  13. #28
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    I think that I've posted Ti Manno's cover of the Mighty Sparrow's "Maria" before. Recently, I discovered a cover of "No Money, No Love" by konpa band Richard Duroseau et son Orchestre. Also, I think that the Mini All Stars based their cover of the Cameroonian song Amio, on Ed Watson's English version, rather than on the original. If you looking for soca's biggest impact outside of the English speaking Caribbean, then look to the Caribbean coast of Colombia. Soca was one of the root rhythms of champeta. The Colombians mixed in konpa, zouk, Congolese, highlife, and more, but soca was there from the beginning.

    Soca's influence on the development on afro colombian champeta
    Good post but please note I was talking about Calypso and what Sparrow said in reference to Calypso as a Mother genre in the Caribbean region rather than Soca.
    I don't regard Soca as a mother genre even though as you pointed out here it had a strong influence on the development of champeta in Colombia. In Panama they also have a Latino version of Soca called Socaton.
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    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
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  14. #29
    Got Kompa? tikreyol's Avatar tikreyol is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    It takes two to argue and last time I checked you were the one acting insecure and picking arguments with me plus I was not addressing you here.
    Can you allow the woman to speak for herself if she cares to?
    Plus I have much more respect for her point of view than I do for yours even though she isn't always correct in some of her assumptions.
    Thank you.
    Really? I recall you being the one in here with an agenda. I was nothing but nice to you when you were trying to "learn."But all you were interested in was dates and background info to gather for your wack a$.s "thesis" that was revealed in this thread.

    Again if you want to be taken serious come in here with facts on BOTH sides to prove your argument. Not some video of your beloved musician over-embellishing the impact of his music. SMH
    Ti sourit, ti sourit se nan pèlen ou rete
    Rat ki rat se nan pèlen ou rete
    Tèt zozo men pa ou, zozo kale men pa ou
    M ap konyen fanm nan jis solèy leve
    Bwa m kale tou wouj
    Kon piman , kon piman, Langyèt madivinèz
    Ou pa bezwen chandèl pou ou klere l

  15. #30
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikreyol View Post
    Really? I recall you being the one in here with an agenda. I was nothing but nice to you when you were trying to "learn."But all you were interested in was dates and background info to gather for your wack a$.s "thesis" that was revealed in this thread.

    Again if you want to be taken serious come in here with facts on BOTH sides to prove your argument. Not some video of your beloved musician over-embellishing the impact of his music. SMH
    I am not in here to argue that Kompa came from Calypso my insecure friend.
    Knowing that Calypso influenced the development of music genres in all the Caribbean islands like Sparrow said is good enough for me. If a music influences another it does not necessarily mean that the music in question came from all of the ones that influenced it as a music genre can typically have many influences some stronger than others but maybe that is too much for you to wrap around your pretty little brain?

    My agenda for being here is honestly to learn a bit more about Kompa and its other related French Creole language genres from a music identification and time era perspective.

    But I am also here to confirm stuff that I have read regards Dominican musicians playing mainly traditional Haitian Cadence or Cadence rampa in the mid 70's even while they were developing their Cadence-lypso concept which would make perfect logical sense. And if this is indeed the case then it would also explain exactly why Lord Shorty's "E Pete" had such an impact on Gordon Henderson when he heard it that he referred to it as a revolutionary fusion of Calypso, Cadence and Patois in his "Zouk Land" book.

    Unfortunately for you, your insecurity about why I am here is not going to deter me from my fact finding mission.
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    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
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