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This is quite interesting Babi and is a clear example of why the Christian world has so many different sects within sects within sects and different denominations. In my Pentecostal/Baptist style upbringing, it was believed that people who "died in their sins," in the final analysis, will live in eternal torture. Interesting how the SDA holds to that theory, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe in no torment at all and the rest of Christianity, for the most part, believe there is a corresponding eternal torment to eternal bliss. All use the Bible to justify their positions and clearly all cannot be right at the same time.

Anyway, the whole heaven and hellfire and eternal torment/bliss came from the Persian Zoroastrians who rule over the Jews for over 200 years. Their concepts of the afterlife were eventually borrowed by the Jews who upgraded their boring afterlife concept. Their old belief was (and this is what the Jehovah's Witness have held on to) was that ALL dead people, whether good or bad, went to a shadowy place called sheoul or simply, the grave. This is why they stressed living a righteous life in the here and now in order to attain God's blessings because at death, ALL men went to the same place and just wandered as dead souls in an underworld. The Persian concept improved on this because it allowed the oppressed righteous to have hope in the idea that the wicked in this life who appeared to prosper without regard to God and/or the poor would get what was coming to them in the afterlife while the righteous would be promoted to eternal glory.

The evolution of this concept took some time to complete. By the time of Jesus, the belief was that the wicked dead resided in a place of eternal torment and were separated in the same underworld by a chasm (gulf) from the non-suffering righteous dead in a place called "Abraham's bosom." There was no idea of a heaven that righteous people went to. The dead were not consumed by the fire. They were only tormented by it and tormented while conscious of it. Note that the "rich man" in Luke 17 was speaking from within the flames of his torment, clearly alive as per the Bible.

When the Christian sect arose from the Jewish community, they (at least some, it appears) held on to the notion that the evil suffered forever in fires that never die out but now also, that the righteous, upon death, went to be with Jesus.

Without getting into too many scriptures, I think Matthew 25:46 sums of the prevailing New Testament concept. The condemned will be assigned to EVERLASTING torment in relation to the righteous being carried off into EVERLASTING glory. It' the only way it can make sense and resound the intended message of fear it needs to convey. Telling someone that they will be tossed into fire ad be extinguished in a matter of minutes is not a strong enough deterrent to give up all of life's evil pleasures.

"Spiritual death" does NOT mean physical death as per the New Testament. The wages of sin is SPIRITUAL death, or as some state, eternal separation from God. This is not to be confused with physical death which just sheds a living [temporary] body from an eternal, ever living soul that in the afterlife can suffer/enjoy pleasure but NEVER die.

Exactly!

I'm doing well thanks. Buried with work but God is good. How are you?

Telling me that I will miss out on walking on streets of gold, and living in a mansion in a world where there'll be no more death, and sickness, and unhappiness is enough for me for desire to give up all of life's evil pleasures...there is absolutely NOTHING on this earth (as good as it may taste or feel ) that can compare...

I am good...can't complain. Just tired...and want to be able to sleep for a full day, and I'll be good!

Bears repeating.

Luke 17 is recalling the events of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is great evidence of the fact that the wicked will be destroyed, not be burning forever.

Matthew 25:46 never said that anyone is going to be burning endlessly. All that verse states it that there will be everlasting punishment. The everlasting punishment is eternal death, which is eternal separation from God. The reward for those who follow Him is eternal life.

dolbabi

what about the endless torment of the lake of fire discussed in revelation?

I'll give you the response I gave in another discussion...

The word "forever" in the Bible happens to have different meanings- it is often used differently than how we currently understand it. For example, look at what Jonah said while in the belly of the whale.

Jonah 2:6 - I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.

Now if you are familiar with the story of Jonah, you know that he was only in the whale's belly for three days and three nights. So the word forever has a totally different meaning there! But the best example for this discussion is in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, where God rains down fire from heaven. Read Jude 1:

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Bible uses the term eternal (forever) here. Are the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Of course not. Clearly the fire burned until everything was demolished. In Jude, the Bible is telling us just what will happen in the last days. It clearly says that Sodom and Gomorrah are the example and that they suffered eternal fire. That means that eternal fire has a different interpretation.

The Bible often uses the term "forever/eternal" to mean "as long as the particular situation lasts." The same meaning occurs with hellfire. That is why the Bible goes on to say that there will no more death and suffering etc.

And to further expound...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 15: 52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Now if the gift of God to those who believe in Him is everlasting life, how can those who didn't believe be continuously burning? That would mean that they also have everlasting life, not a good life, but they would still have life everlasting. They would be immortal. That simply cannot be, because the Bible states that only those who believe will have life everlasting.

So that being said, "forever" in numerous verses in the Bible has the meaning "as long as the particular situation lasts." Revelation 20:14 states "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." That means that hell will last until the wicked die. That's it - done. No more hellfire. No more death. No more suffering. No more pain. No more sickness. See the following chapter...

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Praise God!

in revelation 21:4, is he talking about EVERY HUMAN THAT EVERL IVED? or not?

I dont think it is but maybe I am wrong!


if everything is just gonna be hunky dory, whats the point of all the BS he is putting us through now?

why not just skip ahead to the good part?

its like, does god realize whats going on in ethiopia right now? not to mention the homeless shelter down the street.

or that girl that just found out her baby daddy is also HER REAL DADDY?!?

Rev. 21:4 is talking about everyone in general. By that point, the wicked will be no more because the fire will have consumed them. Hellfire will be gone. From that point on, there will be no death or suffering.

God gives us all freedom of choice. He isn't putting us through anything. We are putting ourselves through it because we choose to do things the way we do. Yes, innocent people suffer but that's our fault. All those people who are starving shouldn't be but it's because people don't care enough about others. God has to allow things to run its course - people must be allowed to choose. We are not the only creations that God has...it's bigger than just "us." It's an example to all of what can happen when we choose to do wrong. After it is all said and done, sin will be no more.

none of this answers why there are wicked people

wicked people is defined as those who dont accept jesus

so by definition i am wicked and so is my dad and mom and many of my friends.

and even if that is not how it works, then how does it work?

why is it possible that people are wicked?

when u have a creator who designes everybody individually and specifically, how is it possible that they go against his will

and if he designed them so they would go against his will, then again, there is no point because in the end he either burns them in hell forever or burns them in hell until they burn to death and are no more

so why make them in the firstplace?

i think the answer to that is : to give them an opportunity to come to the lord and be his friend or whatever

but again, you have the issue of why, when u have a designer, why would someone go or not go to the lord?

there must be an inherent difference between u and i

meaning he planned ahead of time that you would be chosen and i would not

or he made it random

which is just as dumb

if its random, then EVERYONE could end up being wicked, unrepentant, and EVERYONE would perish, leaving god to sit on his thrown and hum praises to himself.

Would you rather have been born a robot? If so, I don't know what to say...

As you stated, God gave people the choice to love Him. I'd rather that than anything else. Nothing planned as to who is or is not chosen. We both have freedom of choice.

so then is there sometihng different between me and you inherent in our design? why are u saved and I am not. what is MAKING us choose differently? why do we choose differently. there must be a reason..

I dont know what it means: would I rather be a robot? no i dont think so. but if I Was, thewn I wouldnt know any better and I would not care. shoot id be like adam and eve right? that doesnt sound bad at all.

as I see it god made all this possible

the good stuff is great and fantastic, the bad stuff is not.

to me it doesnt look like we have a good god or a bad god.

because as good as some of the things are, some of the things in life are soooo evil and wrong.


just a strange god is what I think.

I dont think its right that humans get tortured for all time, not even for people like hitler. because whats the point. you made tyhem
you must have known they would do that, and if you didnt know, then you at least knew they might do it because you made it possible for them to do it.

either way, it just seems like "why" why what was the point, when you think of a dude like hitler. why? what was the point.

and this can be extrapolated to all the awful things that happen aND THAT people do to each other.