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BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 05:27 PM

Someone told me that its never a bad time to start calling to/praising your ancestors and that one should try to go back at least 4 generations. So of course the question come up "what if you can't go back that far". What if a person only know 2 generations back on their mother's maternal side, one on her paternal, two on fathers paternal and maybe none on fathers maternal? So this person tells me that in a case like that, you should just speak to them all in a general sense even if you can't call them by name.

Here is my question about that -I've read that only certain ancestors should be called upon. That they shouldn't be praised or looked to for guidance if they had any addictions, were theives, died violently (except in approved war for their nation/family), had mental illness and a whole bunch of other things I don't remember right now. So if you don't know the histories and character of all your ancestors, how can you safely just start calling on them?

carib_xtc · 06-26-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by BacchanalDiva

Someone told me that its never a bad time to start calling to/praising your ancestors and that one should try to go back at least 4 generations. So of course the question come up "what if you can't go back that far". What if a person only know 2 generations back on their mother's maternal side, one on her paternal, two on fathers paternal and maybe none on fathers maternal? So this person tells me that in a case like that, you should just speak to them all in a general sense even if you can't call them by name.

Here is my question about that -I've read that only certain ancestors should be called upon. That they shouldn't be praised or looked to for guidance if they had any addictions, were theives, died violently (except in approved war for their nation/family), had mental illness and a whole bunch of other things I don't remember right now. So if you don't know the histories and character of all your ancestors, how can you safely just start calling on them?

so why are you calling on dead people again???

Bake n Shark · 06-26-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by carib_xtc

so why are you calling on dead people again???

Lol....

BD...

kevlocks · 06-26-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by BacchanalDiva

Someone told me that its never a bad time to start calling to/praising your ancestors and that one should try to go back at least 4 generations. So of course the question come up "what if you can't go back that far". What if a person only know 2 generations back on their mother's maternal side, one on her paternal, two on fathers paternal and maybe none on fathers maternal? So this person tells me that in a case like that, you should just speak to them all in a general sense even if you can't call them by name.

Here is my question about that -I've read that only certain ancestors should be called upon. That they shouldn't be praised or looked to for guidance if they had any addictions, were theives, died violently (except in approved war for their nation/family), had mental illness and a whole bunch of other things I don't remember right now. So if you don't know the histories and character of all your ancestors, how can you safely just start calling on them?

where you hear this from?

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Bake n Shark

Lol....

BD...

glad you're back safe sexy. oh and..you're not allowed to comment in this thread

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by kevlocks

where you hear this from?

I read the same thing on a few different websites and saw mention when I read one of Malidoma Patrice Some' lectures. Is that contrary to what you know?

Bake n Shark · 06-26-2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by BacchanalDiva

glad you're back safe sexy. oh and..you're not allowed to comment in this thread

Don't you have some things for me?

Kiz · 06-26-2006, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by BacchanalDiva

Someone told me that its never a bad time to start calling to/praising your ancestors and that one should try to go back at least 4 generations. So of course the question come up "what if you can't go back that far". What if a person only know 2 generations back on their mother's maternal side, one on her paternal, two on fathers paternal and maybe none on fathers maternal? So this person tells me that in a case like that, you should just speak to them all in a general sense even if you can't call them by name.

Here is my question about that -I've read that only certain ancestors should be called upon. That they shouldn't be praised or looked to for guidance if they had any addictions, were theives, died violently (except in approved war for their nation/family), had mental illness and a whole bunch of other things I don't remember right now. So if you don't know the histories and character of all your ancestors, how can you safely just start calling on them?

Steups! dis is ah joke right?

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Bake n Shark

Don't you have some things for me?

doh kill me, yes I do. matter of fact, check your email in a few minutes.

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Trinikiz

Steups! dis is ah joke right?

Not at all, why would it be?

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:28 PM

I just did a search to see if I could find the articles about this that I read before -no luck yet but found this in the middle of a thread on africaspeaks.com:

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasonin...?topic=3231.15

Among the Yoruba, Egungun Priests work exclusively with Ancestor Spirits and they teach the community different names for different levels of death and deceased. The category governing EGUN or Ancestors is clear - it is rooted in emotional, social, intellectual, political and spiritual balance. Suicides, criminals, rapists, liars, the gullable, the fools, the lazy - while not the same in terms of the severity of their actions or their intent all fall OUTSIDE of Ancestorship.
But if you don't believe, set up a space for all the suicides in your family and start pouring libation to them. I PROMISE you that you will be in need of mental help very soon after. You will invoke the energy of their pain, their suffering and their lack of closure. And then you will be sure - opinion means nothing in SCIENCE.

Rinababy · 06-26-2006, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by BacchanalDiva

I just did a search to see if I could find the articles about this that I read before -no luck yet but found this in the middle of a thread on africaspeaks.com:

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasonin...?topic=3231.15

i don't know about your family, but my family got more skeletons than a friggin haunted house. Family secrets are rampant so what if you summoning an ancestor without knowing enough about their real history. Dem tings does frighten me. Sometimes when you play with the unknown....

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:45 PM

Two articles from same site

What is Egungun
by Babalorisa Adeyemi Efundeji Oyeilumi

We honor and give praise to God, whom is known by man names. We pay tribute to the divine force with us and our presence, for we know that without spirit of trust, belief, tradition, love and patience, our circumstances in this country and the world could be many times worst. Ase!

Ancestor Spirits
The Supreme Being is no stranger to the Yoruba or African. God is incomparable and is established as “The Creator”, having no equal, and is not represented by an image. God is also the absolute controller of the universe, using divinities (Orisa) as lesser agents, delegating authority and functions. God also allows the ancestors to act as intermediaries between man, woman and God, and between man, women and the divinities.

The Egungun (ancestors) are the guardians of family morality and they can come down to help or molest, to create adversity or grant happiness.

Origin of Egungun
Egungun is regarded as the collective spirits of ancestors who occupy space in Heaven. Hence, they are called Ara Orun (Dwellers of Heaven). These ancestral spirits are believed to be in constant watch of their survivors on Earth. They bless, protect, warn, and punish their Earth relatives, depending on how their relatives neglect or remember them. Their collective functions cut across lineage and family loyalty. They protect the community against evil spirits, epidemics, feminine, witch-craft, and evil doers, ensuring their well-being. The spirits could be evoked collectively or individually, in time of need. The “place of call” is either on the graves of ancestors (Oju Orori), the family shrine (Ile Run), or the community grove (Igbalele).

The ancestral spirits may be invited to the Earth physically in masquerade, and such masquerades are referred to as Egungun or Ara Orun. The supernatural powers the ancestor have over the community become real as the different Egungun perform their religious, political and social function. Egungun appearances resemble the Yoruba view of life after death. The coming out of Egungun is a time of festivity and entertainment. A time of deep belief in divine guidance and protection also a way of immortalizing one’s name.

One of the principle Odu which shows how Egungun was is Oturupon-Meji. Another is Owonrin or Aseyin. A lot has changed with the religion since the first Yoruba slave landed on the western shores from how it was practiced in Nigeria along the side of the Atlantic.

The Egungun
It is believed that everyone has the power and ability to communicate with those who have passed beyond this life. This communication can simply involve remembering a revered ancestor and making use of that memory as a role model for life decisions and through the use of dreams. Because the festivals (places where there are Egungun) are not easily accessible in this country, Orisa worshippers in the west have created several alternatives. Using this alternative approach the first step in the process of honoring the ancestors is the set up of an ancestor shrine for prayer and meditation. There are a number of traditional African ways for building an ancestor altar. If you do not have access to either a Babalosa or a Babalawo, we recommend that the altar be set up with minimal elements. Clean the room or space by smudging (smoke from burning leaves) Ewe, herbs, saying a prayer to the water, light a candle, also placing food, water, fruit, incense, names of ancestor/relative you wish to honor. A offering of food, in small portions on a small, preferably chipped, white plate, should be placed at the altar prior to your family sitting down for a meal. You can also place a cup of coffee or tea, some flowers and cigars. Once you are in communication with your ancestors, they will make specific requests for the kind of offering they want. Once the offering has been made you should thank the ancestors for the blessing that you want. Once the offering has been made you should thank the ancestors for the blessings that you have already received. You may express your thanks in your own words.

Even the trauma of the slave trade and the horrors of the middle passage did not erase the long history and rich lore associated with ancestral devotion, from the African’s mind. In Cuba, most if not all, of the public performances of Egungun masquerade had passed out of use by the early 1900’s. This was not the case for the Yoruba taken to Brazil. They were able to continue and maintain most of the customs of their homeland. This was due, in part, to Brazil’s proximity to West Africa., also to easy movement back and forth of free Yoruba. Today Brazil can boast of the largest Yoruba population. One sees Egungun masqueraders maintaining their Yoruba heritage in much the same way their African counterparts do. This Egungun masquerading is not to be confused with the brand of Brazilian spiritism, developed and propagated by Alan Kardec, the European Spiritist.

Egungun in Oyotunji Lineage
As with all cultures of the world, all wisdom, knowledge and understanding of any given nation or ethnic group has been historically preserved in secret societies. For the Yoruba of Southeast Nigeria, one of the many secret societies is the Egungun Society or Egbe Egungun. It is through this society that the Yoruba preserve and nurture the history of wholesome community and family development and growth and elevate the memory of their ancestors. Through enshrinement celebration and ritual, one such society, Egbe Egungun Jalumi is a secret society of African-Americans dedicated to reclamation and preservation.

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:47 PM

This lineage, as a society, was started 25 years ago (c1973), in Oyotunji Village. By 1975, the late Chief Otu Priest, Orisamola Awolowo, was acting in the capacity of the first Alagba of that society. It now includes six alagba. Two other initiated and practicing priest, of Gary, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisconsin help perform ceremonies. Oyotunji grew and grew, assisting national groups.

In Yoruba religious doctrine, Iku (death) is an Orisa. A creation of Olodumare entrusted with the duty of escorting man and woman from this world to the next. He is known as Ojise Orun (Heaven’s Bailiff) In this case, death is likened to a debt, everyone must pay, and Iku is the collector.

It is Iku’s ability to transform those we love and cherish, thus hiding them from our mortal view that causes such pain, anguish, bewilderment in society. The descendants in the diaspora have evolved and offer a response to the pain of death. This response is best observed in the workings of the Egbe Egungun. Egungun originated among the Oyo Yoruba, who have adapted and added to the masking traditions honoring the ancestors, found among the Nupe Itapa. The Society is composed of spiritual specialists, who oversee the observance of ancestral devotion and come to the aid and comfort of the community when death strikes.

There is a well known Yoruba expression, “Aye’ Loja Orun-Ile – Earth is but a marketplace, Heaven is Home.” Earth is often seen as a farm, at the end of the day we return home to count our gain and losses. So too is our sojourn on Earth. Ase

Babalorisa Adeyemi Efundeji Oyeilumi is one of the founding members of Damballah Wedo and Oyotunji Village. He is one of the first African-Americans to be initiated to Orisa. He is a priest of Obatala.

http://www.rootsandrooted.org/egungun.htm
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Heaven for a Thug?: Why Libation and Young Warriors Don't Mix

Since as long as anybody can remember, young brothers have been pouring out liquor on the street corner for their fallen friends, young men that have died from gang violence, disease, police violence and drug wars.

Thug Heaven?

This act of libation has spawned a popular aspect of Hip Hop, where young people now pay homage to fallen "street soldiers" which inevitably pushed the question, "Is there a Heaven for a G (gangster)?" A question that young warriors have already answered which some common notions as "Only God can judge me" and "Thug's Paradise".

Well the short answer is yes. Africans and Native Americans believe EVERYONE makes to Heaven, with the exception of disturbed souls whose death was so violent and traumatic that they have to be ushered into the afterworld through special means. Many middle passage, civil war soldiers, Vietnam vets, lynching victims etc. fall into this category. There is a "heaven" for thugs, but it isn’t pretty.

Heaven is simply the afterworld and it is "good" or "bad" based on how you live. Indigenous people say rapists go to live with rapists in the afterworld. Killers, egomaniacs, bigots, etc. They go to a place to reside with people like themselves. So they will be surrounded, at least initially with all the misery they experienced in life.

When we tell the family of these dead children that their children are finally at rest, we are most likely deceiving them. Many relive their days on Earth so they can fully understand the evil they caused others. Their souls do not rest. They are tormented and troubled. Especially if they are among those that didn't make it to Heaven, but instead are waiting for spiritual work to be done on their behalf.

We call these people that die but do not become Ancestors "Dark Deceased" in some cultures. They are not honored, nor believed to have lived long enough to understand and achieve their divine destiny.

What do Thugs do in Heaven?

What they do in Heaven is the same as what righteous people do. They recount their time on Earth, hear what lessons they failed to learn, and begin to process that for reincarnation. Some are so terrible that they are not given opportunities to return as long as their evil is felt on Earth. If Hitler was human (and I have reason to doubt that he was) you can be sure that he probably hasn’t reincarnated yet. It wouldn’t be logical to let such a person cross over into Life again when millions of spirits that haven’t caused as much suffering are waiting to reincarnate as well. (Please know these references to numbers are for human understanding and aren’t to be taken too literally. The point is that many ancestors and what we call "Yet to be Born" are waiting to experience Divine Creation.)

Should I pour out a little Liquor?

But it’s important to realize that the pouring of Liquor or Libation is a rite reserved exclusively for those that lived good moral lives. When we pour libation to a person we are honoring and invoking their character, behavior and beliefs. We are asking them to bring us more of what they gave us on Earth.

When we pour liquor to fallen "street soldiers" we are invoking the sale of drugs, the use of firearms, the objectification of women, the fear they breed among our elderly, the vice grip they hold on our blocks. We are asking them to bring more of that into our lives. To help us continue to fight gang wars. To help continue to be able to do whatever it takes to get fly clothes rims and secret "cribs" where we hide secret girlfriends. We are invoking their desire for money, their desire for revenge, their desire for power and respect.

We are welcoming more crime, more death, and more materialism into our lives.

When we pour liquor to a dead gang member we are praying for more gang members. When we pour liquor to a dead pimp we are praying for more pimps to be born and molded. In doing so, the cycle continues. There is a spiritual consequence for performing the rite of libation on the wrong people.

"The Rules"

We do not pour libation for people that died in violence that was not community endorsed (a just war) - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
We do not pour libation for criminals. - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
We do not pour libation for deceased children, even if they were good people. What could a child spirit offer us in the way of wisdom??? (Some culture differ here or at least restrict their communications with child spirits.)
We do not pour libation for people that died of ailments out of norm for their age or that betray a bad lifestyle. - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
We do not pour libation for people that commit suicide. No exceptions. (This is always the one that everyone feels they ought to do"anyway" and end up getting hurt even WORSE.)
We only pour libation for Elders that were moral and responsible.

Healing the Thugs

If you have a loved one that didn’t die as an Ancestor you can pray for their spiritual elevation in your prayers to God, not the Ancestors. Pray that they learn the lessons of their lives well and that they make it safely to the afterworld, if they aren’t there already. Light a candle every once in awhile for them.

If you feel the presence of a relative or friend that died violently, was a criminal, a sexual predator, a poor parent, or had any other bad characteristics that made them unpleasant to most, you should demand that they leave and find divine spirit. It’s not your job to help them do that, because as vagrant spirits they are more dangerous than they were alive and they can become very desperate and violent in their confusion. Only a professional spiritualist should call and work directly with one of these spirits. Again, you can light a candle for them to move towards for spiritual realization. This acts as a spiritual trigger, a "metaphor". That is it. Anything more and you may get hurt. (Literally. I have seen this happen with my own eyes.)

What Impact do Dark Deceased have on our lives?

Many of you are fighting with spouses because of vagrant spirits that couldn’t keep relationships during their lives or battling with a boss that walks with a vagrant spirit that was a slave master etc. Or you want to give up the gang life but feel "compelled" back by an old friend that is now a morally unresolved spirit.

This is why we shouldn’t pour libation to our young warriors that were involved in crime or violence. This is why we should not call their names in praise. This has nothing to do with the love that we have them. It is about honoring and invoking the right kind of energy and wisdom into our lives.

Ever notice how your grandparents didn’t speak about certain people after they pass away?

http://africanamerica.org/groupee/fo...frm/f/96970854

Logged

So if those are the "rules" for honoring ancestors, doesn't that limit you to ancestors that you have some knowledge of?

BacchanalDiva · 06-26-2006, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rinababy

i don't know about your family, but my family got more skeletons than a friggin haunted house. Family secrets are rampant so what if you summoning an ancestor without knowing enough about their real history. Dem tings does frighten me. Sometimes when you play with the unknown....

Somehow I doubt that its that random. I mean, I'm sure there is a solution to that dilemna. I'm just trying to find out what it is.

06-26-2006, 05:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
BacchanalDiva Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in PEACE & HARMONY Posts: 10,030 Credits: 56,872	Question for those well versed in Ife Someone told me that its never a bad time to start calling to/praising your ancestors and that one should try to go back at least 4 generations. So of course the question come up "what if you can't go back that far". What if a person only know 2 generations back on their mother's maternal side, one on her paternal, two on fathers paternal and maybe none on fathers maternal? So this person tells me that in a case like that, you should just speak to them all in a general sense even if you can't call them by name. Here is my question about that -I've read that only certain ancestors should be called upon. That they shouldn't be praised or looked to for guidance if they had any addictions, were theives, died violently (except in approved war for their nation/family), had mental illness and a whole bunch of other things I don't remember right now. So if you don't know the histories and character of all your ancestors, how can you safely just start calling on them?

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