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well this probably sounds weird and militant.

tell me what you think of all this mumbo jumbo!

im a shaman in training, but I dont like labels of that sort...


ok so here is the reasoning!

first of all, a synopsis:

i am just saying they both require a human to want or choose salvation or get punished

but if you look at it, i think we see that punishment is pointless and wrong

either god controls who chooses him

or he made the "total human machine" in such a way that it would act randomly (in the dynamic of choosing or accepting him, among other things) in relation to him. so hes punsihing the parts that act in the random way that he designed them to act, that he deems "bad"

i dunno, but here is a longer rumination!

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god didnt intend for satan to fall

he didnt intend for the angels to fall

he didnt intend for adam and eve to fall

oh really?

I thought the plan of jesus's salvation was written into the universe at the time god first had a thought in his brain?

was it or wasnt it? was it or wasnt it?

did he plan the fall?

did he or didnt he?

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if he did plan the fall, then does he "plan" who chooses salvation and who goes to hell?

does he or doesnt he? and why or why not?


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i dont knopw how to convey the next point

holler if you hear me...



why does one person choose god and another doesnt?

why why why?

free will doesnt answer the question!

why specifically does one human make the choice or another one.

is it random?

if it is random, then what determines it?

if it isnt random, then does god determine it?

how is it fair either way to eternally punish them based on this? (not to mention how is eternal punishment fair at all)


is it random?

does he have the slightest clue who will accept him and who wont?

so does that mean he is gambling? before you say no, yes, yes it does mean he is gambling. thats exaclty what it means if it is random, it means god is gambling with the eternal destiny of billions

and if it is not random, its still screwed up because that means this nutjob is creating people specidfically for hell. and this viewpoint is verified in the so called "good book"

so is it random or not?

how could it be random anyway?

SOMETHING "in the combination of the given parameters of each individual person" COMBINES WITH "the parameters of the ever changing web of experience, interaction, and existence that each human deals with" DETERMINEs exactly WHY one person chooses and another doesnt.


those are the two givens that should determine EVERYTHING.

in that mess is the precise reason why one person likes grape jelly or another likes strawberry, why one person likes jesus and another is a buddhist...

if it IS RANDOM: THEN GOD DESIGNED THE HUMAN MACHINE TO BE RANDOM!

believers, quit letting god off the hook with the BS "well it was our choice, not his" excuse.

as I said, this is bs. in other words.

he is god

he made this
he made this

how clueless and helpless is he?



it is retarted thinking about people who say "gods is doing EVERYTHING HE CAN" to save you/reveal himself.

oh really?

so then why isnt everyone being saved?

seriosuly

so GOD'S, ALLMIGHTY GOD's BEST ISNT GOOD ENOUGH?

seriously?

once again, free will doesnt answer, because if oyu think about free will, then you have to figure out specifically why one person exists the way he does....

these guys want a creator and a controller, then they need to stop presenting everything as so chaotic, out of control and helpless

of course the christian universe, real or not, is chaotic, out of control and helpless, and pathetic.. so is the "scientific universe"

but you dont see me worshiping it.

free will implies that god creates someone and lets them do what he wants

he doesnt control them

he doesnt know what they will do (and this opens up a can of worms about gods omniscience by the way)

so in my understanding this means that god has created humans as beings that act randomly (since he cant predict their actions)

the important issue here is that they act randomly in relation to choosing salvation or not choosing salvation

this raises a few problems in mine eyes

if t\we are designed to act randomly (by having free will) then no matter WHAT we do, we are doing what we are designed to do

god may not like what his random machines end up doing

but he designed them that way

in fact it would be entirely feasible, given what free will implies, that every single human EVER EVER EVER rejected god and went to hell!

this is what happens when you create us to act randomly (by giving us free will)

so punishing a machine designed to act in a random way is pointless

its doing what it is supposed to do no matter what it does

the converse is that it is not random and that god is controling whoi picks him and who does not, like calvinism or predestination

this might be how things are, but i thin k it is obviously bad because its saying that god creates beings specifically for hell



if you create a bunch of randomly functioning humans, then what would determine why each individual human makes a specific choice?

what would be the difference between me and you?

I say free will cant answer the question

it just says that we can do whatever we want

but why would one of us make a different choice?

why are we different?

and how is it fair that we are punished based on those differences?

i think in the end,

when dealing with the issue of a creator in the god sense, meaning a creator that sets and invents ALL the parameters and possibilities

the idea that he punishes what happens in his creation is pure folly and nonesense!

i know this isnt a world friendly idea

but i think i am right

people compare god to a judge or a father but this is a totally different dynamic and a bad analogy

what do you think?

free will means people can do whatever and are not created with a fixed destiny

so still

why specifically do individuals use their free will differently?

and how is it justifyable to create something that has free will and then punish it if it uses it wrongly?

if it uses free will in a right or a wrong way, there has to be a reason inherent in the design of the individual human

there just has to be, so if we want a creator, its almost impossible to understand why the creator would punish based on the nature of what creation is and what it entails!

and if there is not a reason inherent in the design of each human

then justifying punishment is still impossible