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Thread: Should Soca Artists Go back to Charging for their Songs ?

  1. #16
    Red Man TOLOMB's Avatar TOLOMB is offline
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    Artists should charge for their products. Now that will not help the industry gain a stronger command/demand in the global market. The reason why the few artists are in rotation touring and the like is due to consistency. You can have a hit this year but you MUST back it up and defend it. If you have a good product people will pay for it even when it's available elsewhere for free. For example Machel and David Rudder sell many copies of their albums yearly via direct download and record shops. If you have a good product it will get noticed but consistently producing a good product will generate demand and revenue. Take Lyrikal as a prime example of how putting out a good product consistently will pay off. New artists have to pay their dues... this is just business.

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    Insurgent Alpha Unit's Avatar Alpha Unit is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by socapineman View Post
    Oh....on top of the list are DJs.....they love too much Freeness, it aint like they helping these new artists anyway, maybe if they paying for something they like, they will try and " push" it more, at Best, the artists should only make it available to radio Stations, legal or Bootleg.....we have too many of them imo want to Buss it first but don't want to pay, the remaining so call " celebrity DJs" ......!
    Interesting topic. Some separation needs to be had here. There are DJs who download tons of illegal mp3s across all genres not just soca. The DJs within the caribbean community more specifically the soca community are not an exception to this. However there needs to be an understanding and some separation put in place. The veteran DJs and the connected and well respected ones will generally not have to buy soca music. In my case I can say that I get many songs direct from producers and artists individually. I have paid subscription to 2 pools, and what I don't get from these sources come from mass emailings by agents of the artists themselves. With regard to pushing music, the reality here is that many are not original thinkers. Therefore they wait until others start playing certain songs in order to then play them themselves. They in many cases do not actually love music and as such are disconnected to the plight of the artists that fall in the lower tier as far as popularity. Even when they make mixes they don't attempt to vary much from the regular 20 songs that everyone else plays. The days of DJs actually purchasing music are almost entirely over and as because of this there is no need to play half of the music they accumulate because they didn't "waste" money to pay for it.

    As far as the pushing the culture part goes, they actually would have to care first. Socapro and VP can seem annoying for some of the same reasons ans well as differing ones, but it would be hard to argue that they don't care about soca music. Most of the DJs in the soca community couldn't care less. It is most evident when you listen to them on the various bootleg radio stations and realize for the most part they are playing the exact same songs they play in parties. This means they aren't introducing their listeners to anything new nor sharing any knowledge about the art form or artists themselves. Every year I do two mixes and I am always asked "where you find these songs" because often people haven't heard them before or if they have been played it was so short and with so much talk and effects over it, they couldn't even identify what they heard. And don't be confused about "bussing it first" that only applies to the more popular artists. If Voice song didn't blow up in Trini the DJs here would not have been angling to buss his song first. Give them that techo bullshit waiting on the stage and they woulda brake on deyself to be first to play it despite the marked difference in quality of the 2 songs.
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    Insurgent Alpha Unit's Avatar Alpha Unit is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhalistix View Post
    maybe not in the hip hop and R&B, or pop genre but in the soca genre, hell F-ing YEAH. That has nothing to do with being a true fan or not. Bajan, much like trinis, much like greenz, much like (insert you island here) gravitate to their music first. This has nothing to do with no being a true fan or not its just the music they get expose to first.

    In my example i am simply saying that if a lucian (or from any small island) releases a song to his market, because of the market size his sales numbers will be very low. Where as a T&T artist well see far greater numbers because the the market available to sales.
    The bolded is absolutely true. I would add that each island have specific nuances to their music that they either prefer or are so accustomed to that it simply enhances their attraction to their own. I hear and like songs from all the islands as well I sometimes hear songs I just can't get into as a listener. It doesn't mean the song is bad but it simply isn't my preference.

    Your example is also on point. Here I would add that because on a broader scale T&T is recognized as the birthplace of soca, calypso and carnival, music coming out from T&T has a much greater chance of gaining the numbers beyond the shores of T&T if we had to return to a pay model. Technology is a blessing and a curse. It opened the door for more exposure to the music and artists but it also opened the floodgates for unqualified people that couldn't care less to profit and benefit from these artists work.
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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Alpha,

    Okay cool, points noted, if you can clarify a few ……

    Keep in mind, I am looking at it from a “fan base “that is willing to go to ITunes and spend the money to purchase a track that I like.


    Without repeating my points again…just reread post # 8


    The veteran DJs and the connected and well respected ones will generally not have to buy soca music.



    Maybe, but this is what I am staying needs to change, a lot of “ DJs” are making a good living off Djing, so I don’t see why a DJ Pool shouldn’t be incorporated where they pay to receive these latest tunes from artists/producers….which will somewhat help out some of these artists/producers.

    Most of the DJs in the soca community couldn't care less

    Understatement here…and it is a damn shame they bring the “ set-up “ man to talk another set of B.S. like they in a Sound Clash where you need this type of intervention.



    The days of DJs actually purchasing music are almost entirely over and as because of this there is no need to play half of the music they accumulate because they didn't "waste" money to pay for it.


    Fair enough….hence the point of the thread…something should change, the artists/producers need to charge for their material….they need to be compensated because a lot of ppl making money off them !
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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Unit View Post
    The bolded is absolutely true. I would add that each island have specific nuances to their music that they either prefer or are so accustomed to that it simply enhances their attraction to their own. I hear and like songs from all the islands as well I sometimes hear songs I just can't get into as a listener. It doesn't mean the song is bad but it simply isn't my preference.

    Your example is also on point. Here I would add that because on a broader scale T&T is recognized as the birthplace of soca, calypso and carnival, music coming out from T&T has a much greater chance of gaining the numbers beyond the shores of T&T if we had to return to a pay model. Technology is a blessing and a curse. It opened the door for more exposure to the music and artists but it also opened the floodgates for unqualified people that couldn't care less to profit and benefit from these artists work.
    Absolutely true base on your experience..


    I am speaking from a “ Fan Base of Soca “ …..If you speaking from a patriotic base( I am Trini, I am Bajan, etc….) , then no need to carry on !

    From a fanbase of the genre, let's say …..these songs are release on Itunes, Amazon…..why would I, a Jamaican, that enjoy listening to Soca or “ good music” hear “ Ah Ducking “ etc…..on ITunes…..then say…hum….let me see where this artist is from……oh…..he is from Barbados….well, since I don’t like Bajans, guess what, I aint buying it……again, this is what you guys are saying, bias at best !


    Again, I am around a lot of “ Fans” of the genre….I never heard them say…oh, I don’t like that cause a Grenadian singing it….it seems so senseless and foolish.

    Then again, the World is full of bias ppl…so if that is your experience, then it is what it is….I am just saying you as a DJ might be looking at it from that perspective and can identity a Jab Jab and link it to Spice or an artist talking about Wuk up…..and link it to Barbados...and you have your preference….most can’t link it, unless it is important to say, oh, this is from my Island, I will support it vs. saying, damn, this is a good song, I am buying it !


    Point and case……Edwin early songs…….outside of the obvious where he is from, I find that argument hard to stand up !

    Meaning, if the song is good and it is out there ( ITunes, Amazon, etc ) the true fan base will find it and support it !

  6. #21
    Registered User Vyenegre Reloaded is offline
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    You can’t talk about soca without acknowledging that island bias both to and from is an issue. Soca is made up of a catalogue of different styles all native to individual islands. When you listen an Antigua ridim, or a Grenadian jab, the individual island style is obvious.

    By extention, Trini and a fair amount of Bdos music is done in a style which is considered ‘the international standard’ of soca. Thus, the majority of soca lovers or the true soca fan base (as you call it) is accustomed to that style of music. By default, these people may not like the sound of an island style ridim, not because there is anything wrong with it, but simply because, subconciously, they judge it by the perceived international standard of soca.

    So many times you go to an island carnival and a local song dominates to the point where you fall in love with the song. Get back home (wherever that may be) and it even when it is played, it does not have the impact outside of its locality, simply because the audience is not familiar with that style. And the DJs by extention don’t show it the love it needs for it to grow.

    So it is inevitable, that a lot of good music simply wont get any love outside of their locality. As it stands, artists can use julians promo for e.g and whatever else to distribute their music FOR FREE, market it and get a buzz going. Going back to charging will put a lot of artists at a disadvantage simply because of their style. Eventually it will reach a point where any artists who does not conform to what is considered the international standard, will simply never make an impact.

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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyenegre Reloaded View Post
    You can’t talk about soca without acknowledging that island bias both to and from is an issue. Soca is made up of a catalogue of different styles all native to individual islands. When you listen an Antigua ridim, or a Grenadian jab, the individual island style is obvious.

    By extention, Trini and a fair amount of Bdos music is done in a style which is considered ‘the international standard’ of soca. Thus, the majority of soca lovers or the true soca fan base (as you call it) is accustomed to that style of music. By default, these people may not like the sound of an island style ridim, not because there is anything wrong with it, but simply because, subconciously, they judge it by the perceived international standard of soca.

    So many times you go to an island carnival and a local song dominates to the point where you fall in love with the song. Get back home (wherever that may be) and it even when it is played, it does not have the impact outside of its locality, simply because the audience is not familiar with that style. And the DJs by extention don’t show it the love it needs for it to grow.

    So it is inevitable, that a lot of good music simply wont get any love outside of their locality. As it stands, artists can use julians promo for e.g and whatever else to distribute their music FOR FREE, market it and get a buzz going. Going back to charging will put a lot of artists at a disadvantage simply because of their style. Eventually it will reach a point where any artists who does not conform to what is considered the international standard, will simply never make an impact.


    Smh.....did you read my assumptions to what we are talking about ?


    Fair enough to say no!....of course everything you stated is correct, hence why nothing or soca will never grow...all that you stated !


    Why should local DJs in St Kitts, etc.....play music from Trinidad when they not acknowledging their artists !

    So your points are noted. ..that is not that this is about.


    Is how to grow the business model and leave these bias ass ppl who only going to play ttheir music where they are.....

    I was saying if the songs were released in the format that i mentioned. .....btw....one thing you can sincerely listen to a riddim and know it is from St Vincent, St Lucia, wtc......without words associated with that Island ?






    How you guys say it......" allyuh good yes ! " ....smh.

  8. #23
    Insurgent Alpha Unit's Avatar Alpha Unit is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by socapineman View Post
    Alpha,

    Okay cool, points noted, if you can clarify a few ……

    Keep in mind, I am looking at it from a “fan base “that is willing to go to ITunes and spend the money to purchase a track that I like.


    Without repeating my points again…just reread post # 8


    The veteran DJs and the connected and well respected ones will generally not have to buy soca music.



    Maybe, but this is what I am staying needs to change, a lot of “ DJs” are making a good living off Djing, so I don’t see why a DJ Pool shouldn’t be incorporated where they pay to receive these latest tunes from artists/producers….which will somewhat help out some of these artists/producers.

    Most of the DJs in the soca community couldn't care less

    Understatement here…and it is a damn shame they bring the “ set-up “ man to talk another set of B.S. like they in a Sound Clash where you need this type of intervention.



    The days of DJs actually purchasing music are almost entirely over and as because of this there is no need to play half of the music they accumulate because they didn't "waste" money to pay for it.


    Fair enough….hence the point of the thread…something should change, the artists/producers need to charge for their material….they need to be compensated because a lot of ppl making money off them !
    The neutral fan who is willing to spend and buy the music has to hear it. I am both a DJ and a fan of music and have always been a fan since I was like 5. Trinidad radio allowed me to hear a great variety of music growing up and that generated interest enough that I would ask my parents to buy me albums when I like the music. As I grew I started purchasing on my own. If there isn't a medium where you get to hear the music enough to enjoy it, how are people going to be able to like anything enough to purchase it? As a fan of music I could never see myself just going on youtube and browse artist after artist or genres.

    As for the model changing, I honestly wish there was a way to reseal the genie in the bottle. It would definitely eliminate almost all bullshitters that are parasitic blights to the entire artform. The biggest scourge on soca music are the useless unskilled DJs that are all over. They have no love for the music and therefore will never see it as a responsibility to help push the artists and their music even when they are on the radio. One of my biggest peeves is hearing bad quality music which is another product of the digital revolution. I remember going to a fete a few years back and hearing several songs play with "islandmix.com" digital watermark embedded in them (obviously ripped from youtube). I would feel like such an ass if I played a song with that in it, but that's because I have pride in the craft and love for the music. As for getting the music free, many truly don't deserve it. In my situation this has come about because of my willingness to push the arftform and the artists music. Before we went almost completely digital, artists would call me up and arrange to meet me to give me their CDs because they knew I would give them a chance to be heard. So DJs like me will always get that benefit because of the love and trust that I have built with them. Honestly I can't envision how it can get better given the technology. The only way would be if we could reverse time or re-engineer the internet so that music could not be downloaded or shared.
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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Unit View Post
    The neutral fan who is willing to spend and buy the music has to hear it. I am both a DJ and a fan of music and have always been a fan since I was like 5. Trinidad radio allowed me to hear a great variety of music growing up and that generated interest enough that I would ask my parents to buy me albums when I like the music. As I grew I started purchasing on my own. If there isn't a medium where you get to hear the music enough to enjoy it, how are people going to be able to like anything enough to purchase it? As a fan of music I could never see myself just going on youtube and browse artist after artist or genres.

    As for the model changing, I honestly wish there was a way to reseal the genie in the bottle. It would definitely eliminate almost all bullshitters that are parasitic blights to the entire artform. The biggest scourge on soca music are the useless unskilled DJs that are all over. They have no love for the music and therefore will never see it as a responsibility to help push the artists and their music even when they are on the radio. One of my biggest peeves is hearing bad quality music which is another product of the digital revolution. I remember going to a fete a few years back and hearing several songs play with "islandmix.com" digital watermark embedded in them (obviously ripped from youtube). I would feel like such an ass if I played a song with that in it, but that's because I have pride in the craft and love for the music. As for getting the music free, many truly don't deserve it. In my situation this has come about because of my willingness to push the arftform and the artists music. Before we went almost completely digital, artists would call me up and arrange to meet me to give me their CDs because they knew I would give them a chance to be heard. So DJs like me will always get that benefit because of the love and trust that I have built with them. Honestly I can't envision how it can get better given the technology. The only way would be if we could reverse time or re-engineer the internet so that music could not be downloaded or shared.

    Well, you are an exception!

    I mostly agree with all that you stated with the exception of given the technology you dont see how it can get better......maybe it goes back to my point...some love freeness. ..and to your point, they have no Pride !

    Meaning, we know sales of dropped off....but go to iTunes. .....true music lovers are spending money on songs......check it out.....on pop, rock, r&b.....etc......so it is safe then to say the fanbase of Soca are freeloaders and love free shit and want to continually rip of these artists!


    Clearly to your point, the technology for Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Nikki, is no different. ..........the same fan base can capture songs off youtube, mixtapes, etc....... yet a lot still supporting the artform !

    My point again. ....until each island implement an association as stated to safe guard their copyright material and stop giving away their music and put a value on it.....it will always remain underground!
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    Insurgent Alpha Unit's Avatar Alpha Unit is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by socapineman View Post
    Well, you are an exception!

    I mostly agree with all that you stated with the exception of given the technology you dont see how it can get better......maybe it goes back to my point...some love freeness. ..and to your point, they have no Pride !

    Meaning, we know sales of dropped off....but go to iTunes. .....true music lovers are spending money on songs......check it out.....on pop, rock, r&b.....etc......so it is safe then to say the fanbase of Soca are freeloaders and love free shit and want to continually rip of these artists!


    Clearly to your point, the technology for Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Nikki, is no different. ..........the same fan base can capture songs off youtube, mixtapes, etc....... yet a lot still supporting the artform !

    My point again. ....until each island implement an association as stated to safe guard their copyright material and stop giving away their music and put a value on it.....it will always remain underground!
    It can't be each island separately. It would have to be a collective or universal group in order to achieve the greatest benefit. The problem there however will be that there will be disagreements as to how the group is governed and managed. If we use the dysfunctional Caricom as a model then you know what to expect. And I agree it's the same internet that benefits Swift, et al. The difference is as you correctly point out the caribbean music loving population is full of freeloaders. In Trinidad man will go thru hell to storm ah fete even if they have money in their pocket just to say they get een free. Caribbean people always looking for something free and with the knowledge that they can get music free a majority would use that route. Many would even sacrifice quality just to avoid paying. I understand your suggestion but it's how to go about implementing a system that benefits the entire genre that is problematic. Back to Balistix point the artist from St. Lucia who tune bess eh getting the same opportunity for airplay as Nappy, Kes, Lyrikal, Machel, etc.
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    Registered User trinifrombx is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Unit View Post
    It can't be each island separately. It would have to be a collective or universal group in order to achieve the greatest benefit. The problem there however will be that there will be disagreements as to how the group is governed and managed. If we use the dysfunctional Caricom as a model then you know what to expect. And I agree it's the same internet that benefits Swift, et al. The difference is as you correctly point out the caribbean music loving population is full of freeloaders. In Trinidad man will go thru hell to storm ah fete even if they have money in their pocket just to say they get een free. Caribbean people always looking for something free and with the knowledge that they can get music free a majority would use that route. Many would even sacrifice quality just to avoid paying. I understand your suggestion but it's how to go about implementing a system that benefits the entire genre that is problematic. Back to Balistix point the artist from St. Lucia who tune bess eh getting the same opportunity for airplay as Nappy, Kes, Lyrikal, Machel, etc.

    Most of these islands are crybabies , " allyuh not playing wi ting " I don't see how any off this would work !


    If it is free, we taking, you boi Socapro is the biggest recipient of freeness , the man get over 2, ooo free soca songs per year, he is robbing these artists !

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    Registered User Vyenegre Reloaded is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by socapineman View Post
    Smh.....did you read my assumptions to what we are talking about ?


    Fair enough to say no!....of course everything you stated is correct, hence why nothing or soca will never grow...all that you stated !


    Why should local DJs in St Kitts, etc.....play music from Trinidad when they not acknowledging their artists !

    So your points are noted. ..that is not that this is about.


    Is how to grow the business model and leave these bias ass ppl who only going to play ttheir music where they are.....

    I was saying if the songs were released in the format that i mentioned. .....btw....one thing you can sincerely listen to a riddim and know it is from St Vincent, St Lucia, wtc......without words associated with that Island ?






    How you guys say it......" allyuh good yes ! " ....smh.
    I hear your assumptions, but I think they are idealistic, hence my argument - not in touch with reality. It is pointless making this argument without taking the island bias into consideration. A man fro DA will always be more inclined to bouyon style - he grew up on it, lived it, its what he knows. A Trini man will always struggle to vibes on authentic bouyon for the same reasons, he grew up on trini style, its what he knows and undertsnds - untill he visits Dominica, he will never grasp the bouyon concept. So... a bouyon artist would need that free distribution to get his song into the hands of these non-dominican DJs as part of his marketing. Prime example, Asa, biggest thing in Bouyon, just mash up France, now in Holland etc - most South Caribbean soca lovers will have never heard of him!

    AS for 'St. Kitts' - yes Trini soca is now popular in all the islands, but as far as I know, islands tend to prefer their own styles during carnival/festivities with a 'garnish' of other popular songs.

    St. Vincent I'm not sure, but an authentic Lucian riddim is distinctive and very easily identifiable. Please note the use of the word 'Authentic'!

    This idea of a nuetral fan, is totally out of touch with reality.

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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Unit View Post
    It can't be each island separately. It would have to be a collective or universal group in order to achieve the greatest benefit. The problem there however will be that there will be disagreements as to how the group is governed and managed. If we use the dysfunctional Caricom as a model then you know what to expect. And I agree it's the same internet that benefits Swift, et al. The difference is as you correctly point out the caribbean music loving population is full of freeloaders. In Trinidad man will go thru hell to storm ah fete even if they have money in their pocket just to say they get een free. Caribbean people always looking for something free and with the knowledge that they can get music free a majority would use that route. Many would even sacrifice quality just to avoid paying. I understand your suggestion but it's how to go about implementing a system that benefits the entire genre that is problematic. Back to Balistix point the artist from St. Lucia who tune bess eh getting the same opportunity for airplay as Nappy, Kes, Lyrikal, Machel, etc.

    Why it can't be each Island separately....each of them need to first have a " legal " structure to first safeguard their artists/producers material....copyright relating to that island, like how UK have , USA have, Canada, etc.......anyway, it is what it is !

    Just a bootleg operation with narrow-minded ppl...hence, no growth !

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    JA Soca Ambassador socapineman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyenegre Reloaded View Post
    I hear your assumptions, but I think they are idealistic, hence my argument - not in touch with reality. It is pointless making this argument without taking the island bias into consideration. A man fro DA will always be more inclined to bouyon style - he grew up on it, lived it, its what he knows. A Trini man will always struggle to vibes on authentic bouyon for the same reasons, he grew up on trini style, its what he knows and undertsnds - untill he visits Dominica, he will never grasp the bouyon concept. So... a bouyon artist would need that free distribution to get his song into the hands of these non-dominican DJs as part of his marketing. Prime example, Asa, biggest thing in Bouyon, just mash up France, now in Holland etc - most South Caribbean soca lovers will have never heard of him!

    AS for 'St. Kitts' - yes Trini soca is now popular in all the islands, but as far as I know, islands tend to prefer their own styles during carnival/festivities with a 'garnish' of other popular songs.

    St. Vincent I'm not sure, but an authentic Lucian riddim is distinctive and very easily identifiable. Please note the use of the word 'Authentic'!

    This idea of a nuetral fan, is totally out of touch with reality.

    Well, let's just say we agree to disagree, because I don't see how it is pointless…


    only close minded ppl would think like that….I give you this much, you are speaking about a small minority of ppl, I am into music and around a lot of ppl that love music, and they are not one dimensional to the extreme you are talking about, you are referring to ppl like back in the days on Imix when some of the Hardcore Trinis, etc would get on about Soca going global, how it will be water down ,etc, etc….like really...and what if it is....you will always have artists keeping it hardcore who won't crossover....just a damn set of fools imo !


    I always ask them show me one Soca artist from Trinidad or elsewhere that don’t want to Buss or sell a million copies…show me one…

    Point is you have some ppl who are one-dimensional, small minded..re their thought process…hence they could never grow a business, etc….they fail to realize it aint about them…it is Bigger than them, at best selfish ..an artist wants to grow!

    Every song an artist make don’t have to be in the format that you are accustom to hearing them make…..everyone and everything in life evolve, nothing in life is Stagnant


    Anyway ….this is why Soca or the artists can’t get to the next level, it will have to remain underground and bootleg because a lot of small minded ppl buy into the concept that ppl are not open-minded, etc…..and they only can relate to their region or format of music….imo, at best laugable….to think the majority of ppl are bias…far from it…



    If I could leave you with this :

    “ Music fills The World With Happiness and Plenty Sweetness and togetherness, Music have no friends or enemies….Everybody can Dingolay


    Or “ One Good Thing About Music, when it hits you, you feel no pain………
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    Registered User Vyenegre Reloaded is offline
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    10,691,643
    Based on your perspective on things, I can only assume you have never experienced 'the islands'. You cannot be refering to the islands populations as a small minority.

    What you discribe as small mindedness is more accuratley described as Cultural Differences.

    Its clear you are passionate about Caribbean music so, here is a challenge - come down to DA for a carnival/creole fest and experience the road behind 3k or Ck truck. Only then will you be able to understand how different the music is and why its unrealistic for that sound to be judged along side the more international sounding soca.

    Side note, a big part of building a succesfull busines model, is thorough understanding of your market. Your argument needs to make allownaces for the distinctive differences in the market.

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