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Thread: SHADOWLINGO Blog - Bones of Contention on the Soca Boat

  1. #31
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    Benn buying old vinyl from the 70's to better gage what early soca sounded like. As I've mentioned before, many records have been showing up on youtube recently. Don't have this one though...

    That is one of many soca tracks from the late 1970's that was inspired by Lord Shorty's "Sweet Music".

    It was arranged by Carl "Beaver" Henderson who worked with Lord Shorty on his "Soca Explosion" album the previous year (1978). Track was also recorded in same Semp Recording Studio in Trinidad as Shorty's "Soca Explosion" album as can be seen from the record label.

    Here is the instrumental version where you can see all information on the record label.

    Wilson Le Gendre - Soca Music (Version) (1979)


    The more you dig into the soca music of the 1970's is the more you will see just how influential Shorty was in comparison to Shadow.

    Shadow's music has always been unique and he has always done his own thing while most of the other artists during the 1970's followed the style that Lord Shorty's introduced and the more you dig into the music is the clearer that reality becomes.

    Glad that you are starting to learn what myself and most others already know about Lord Shorty's major influence on the evolution of calypso music in the 1970's Seawall.
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    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    That is one of many soca tracks from the late 1970's that was inspired by Lord Shorty's "Sweet Music".

    It was arranged by Carl "Beaver" Henderson who worked with Lord Shorty on his "Soca Explosion" album the previous year (1978). Track was also recorded in same Semp Recording Studio in Trinidad as Shorty's "Soca Explosion" album as can be seen from the record label.

    Here is the instrumental version where you can see all information on the record label.

    Wilson Le Gendre - Soca Music (Version) (1979)


    The more you dig into the soca music of the 1970's is the more you will see just how influential Shorty was in comparison to Shadow.

    Shadow's music has always been unique and he has always done his own thing while most of the other artists during the 1970's followed the style that Lord Shorty's introduced and the more you dig into the music is the clearer that reality becomes.

    Glad that you are starting to learn what myself and most others already know about Lord Shorty's major influence on the evolution of calypso music in the 1970's Seawall.
    I'm aware that the song above is a variation of Shorty's "Sweet Music." However, the rhythm is heavily influenced by American music. As for SEMP, John C. recently gave me a copy of an interview (about two hours) that he did with Stan Chaman, the founder and sometime arranger. And no, the more soca from the 70's that I listen to, the more evidence I hear of Wellington, Shadow, Grant, DeCoteau and others. There is hardly any of this Afro Indian sound that indrani was supposed to have unleased. About chutney, Chaman said that SEMP Studios recorded the first chutney records.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

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  3. #33
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    I'm aware that the song above is a variation of Shorty's "Sweet Music." However, the rhythm is heavily influenced by American music. As for SEMP, John C. recently gave me a copy of an interview (about two hours) that he did with Stan Chaman, the founder and sometime arranger. And no, the more soca from the 70's that I listen to, the more evidence I hear of Wellington, Shadow, Grant, DeCoteau and others. There is hardly any of this Afro Indian sound that indrani was supposed to have unleased. About chutney, Chaman said that SEMP Studios recorded the first chutney records.
    I sincerely hope that not all Guyanese are stuck in a time warp as yourself. You seem to be too stuck to understand that Shorty was evolving and developing his soca music all the time from when he first started experimenting in 1971/72.

    The experiments that Shorty did with " Indrani" helped him to develop the soca beat but anyone who has followed Shorty's music will be aware that he moved on from "Indrani" which was Shorty's first prototype track as far as the development of the new soca beat is concerned. Shorty moved on from "Soul Calypso Music" and "Indrani" both recorded in 1972 to "Endless Vibrations" in 1974 then to "Sweet Music" in late 1975/early 1976 then to "Vibrations Groove" and "Sokah Soul of Calypso" in 1977 and finally to "Who God Bless" and "Shanti Om" in 1978.

    During this period in the 1970's Shorty's music evolved and matured from being very sexual to being very spiritual and only a slow Guyanese like yourself is unable to see that and is still stuck on "Indrani" recorded in 1972 while trying to ignore all the more developed soca music productions that Shorty did in the 1970's.
    Shorty mainly referred to "Indrani" as the beginning of what became soca because the musical fusion he did in that song is what led Shorty to develop the new soca beat and to move away from using the traditional calypso beat in his music. It is the new soca beat which is the main ingredient along with the complimentary basslines which helped to define soca as a distinct new music genre apart from calypso.

    I can understand why you are finding this fact so difficult to understand as many folks don't understand the difference in musical structure between calypso and soca.

    Shorty kept evolving his music from his experiments with "Indrani" in 1972 until he left the soca scene in 1980 for a period before returning with his fully developed conscious Jamoo soca style.


    The rhythm or drum-beat in that “Soca Music” song you posted is the same Soca drum beat that can be found in Shorty's "Sweet Music" and "Endless Vibrations".

    And btw Shorty's "Sweet Music" has more soul and funk influence in it than 99% of the 1970's soca tracks that were ever made. The only group who possibly out-did Shorty’s "Sweet Music" in terms of using soul and funk riffs was Kalyan and that is only because they took Shorty's "Sweet Music" and added one of the funkiest basslines that was ever used in any soca track.

    I don't know what planet you have been living on or if your brain and hearing is functioning properly but the reality is that 90% of the calypso musicians who switched from calypso to soca in the 1970’s followed the formula that Shorty introduced. There are hundreds of recordings avaiable to confirm it so no amount of typing and old talk will change that reality.

    They all copied Shorty’s formula and added their own twist starting from Ed Watson, then Maestro and Pelham Goddard, Kalyan, Rose, Nelson, Duke, Merchant, Carl Beaver, Clive Bradley, etc. In fact Shorty’s style became so influential that even Wellington and Shadow adopted the Soca beat into their music by 1978.

    No one followed Wellington’s russo-kaiso style and hardly anyone was able to copy Shadow’s unique calypso style which is why Shadow’s music sounds so unique even to this day. In fact Wellington whole-heartedly abandoned his russo-kaiso style in 1978 got rid of the musicians he was working with and hired Ed Watson to work on his 1977/78 album. It was Ed Watson (the very first musician and arranger to adopt Shorty's soca style and to start spreading it) who musically helped Wellington to quickly abandon his russo-kaiso in preference for Shorty's much more popular soca style.

    The more 1970's soca you listen to is the more you will realize what a major impact Shorty had on the music and you have to be living in denial or in the twilight zone to not realize that. Practically all of T&T’s top musicians in the know acknowledged in the 1970’s that Shorty was the main man who got the soca boat built and sailing even naming it, defining its meaning and breaking down it's structure on record to help other musicians better understand how to formulate and structure their soca music.

    Regards Art De Coteau, he was initially resistant to soca when Shorty was introducing it which is why Shorty had to bring in Ed Watson to finish the arrangements on his 1974 recording of “Endless Vibrations”. Art De Coteau was not happy with how Shorty was restructuring the beat and other elements of calypso music while Ed Watson was a lot more open-minded. Maestro also had the same problem with Art De Coteau which is why Art De Coteau worked on the uptempo calypso tracks on his early 1977 “Rampage” album while Pelham Goddard was hired to arrange the soca tracks.

    As for Grant he never did soca in the 1970's, what he did was kaiso-soul or whatever he called it and it was the Trini musicians like Shorty, Ed Watson, Pelham Goddard and Kalyan who did proper soca versions of Grant's tracks “Hello Africa” and “Neighbour Neighbour”.

    It should also be noted that Shorty experimented with fusing soul with calypso in 1972 on his track called “Soul Calypso Music” which was just before he came up with his infectious soca beat and formula that practically everyone else also adopted within a few years of its introduction.

    Today Shorty's Soca style is the one that 90% of other calypso musicians have adopted while no one plays Wellington russo-kaiso style that Wellington himself abandoned in 1978 in preference for Shorty's soca style.

    Btw here is another 1979 Semp recording that was musically inspired by the work that Carl "Beaver" Henderson did with Shorty. Listen to the same soca beat that Shorty introduced to the music ever present!! This track here is more in the vein of Shorty's "Who God Bless" speed wise with an excellent arrangement.

    Poser - Woman Of the Land (1979)

    Arranged by Carl "Beaver" Henderson

    Oh btw "Indrani" can be regarded as the very first chutney-soca track but that fusion that Shorty did was not embraced by the East Indian population in T&T until he recorded the more spiritual track "Shanti Om" in 1978.
    It's likely that Chaman was referring to Shorty's "Shanti Om" when he boasted that SEMP Studios recorded the very first chutney records. However Shanti Om is more accurately a chutney-soca as opposed to a chutney.

    Take a listen to Shorty's "Shanti Om" below then take a listen to two earlier chutney-soca tracks that Shorty did that were not on the Semp label. If we wish to recognise the two earlier tracks "Kalo Gee" and "Indrani" as chutney-soca tracks then the first ever chutney-soca tracks were not on the Semp Recording label.

    Lord Shorty - Om Shanti Om (from album "Soca Explosion" 1978)


    Lord Shorty - Kalo Gee Bull Bull (from album "The Loveman" 1973/74)


    Lord Shorty - Indrani (from album "Gone Gone Gone" late 1972)
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
    Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney-Soca, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz and the Biggest, Best & Most Influential Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
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  4. #34
    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    I sincerely hope that not all Guyanese are stuck in a time warp as yourself. You seem to be too stuck to understand that Shorty was evolving and developing his soca music all the time from when he first started experimenting in 1971/72.

    The experiments that Shorty did with " Indrani" helped him to develop the soca beat but anyone who has followed Shorty's music will be aware that he moved on from "Indrani" which was Shorty's first prototype track as far as the development of the new soca beat is concerned. Shorty moved on from "Soul Calypso Music" and "Indrani" both recorded in 1972 to "Endless Vibrations" in 1974 then to "Sweet Music" in late 1975/early 1976 then to "Vibrations Groove" and "Sokah Soul of Calypso" in 1977 and finally to "Who God Bless" and "Shanti Om" in 1978.

    During this period in the 1970's Shorty's music evolved and matured from being very sexual to being very spiritual and only a slow Guyanese like yourself is unable to see that and is still stuck on "Indrani" recorded in 1972 while trying to ignore all the more developed soca music productions that Shorty did in the 1970's.
    Shorty mainly referred to "Indrani" as the beginning of what became soca because the musical fusion he did in that song is what led Shorty to develop the new soca beat and to move away from using the traditional calypso beat in his music. It is the new soca beat which is the main ingredient along with the complimentary basslines which helped to define soca as a distinct new music genre apart from calypso.


    The more 1970's soca you listen to is the more you will realize what a major impact Shorty had on the music and you have to be living in denial or in the twilight zone to not realize that. Practically all of T&T’s top musicians in the know acknowledged in the 1970’s that Shorty was the main man who got the soca boat built and sailing even naming it, defining its meaning and breaking down it's structure on record to help other musicians better understand how to formulate and structure their soca music.

    Regards Art De Coteau, he was initially resistant to soca when Shorty was introducing it which is why Shorty had to bring in Ed Watson to finish the arrangements on his 1974 recording of “Endless Vibrations”. Art De Coteau was not happy with how Shorty was restructuring the beat and other elements of calypso music while Ed Watson was a lot more open-minded. Maestro also had the same problem with Art De Coteau which is why Art De Coteau worked on the uptempo calypso tracks on his early 1977 “Rampage” album while Pelham Goddard was hired to arrange the soca tracks.

    As for Grant he never did soca in the 1970's, what he did was kaiso-soul or whatever he called it and it was the Trini musicians like Shorty, Ed Watson, Pelham Goddard and Kalyan who did proper soca versions of Grant's tracks “Hello Africa” and “Neighbour Neighbour”.

    It should also be noted that Shorty experimented with fusing soul with calypso in 1972 on his track called “Soul Calypso Music” which was just before he came up with his infectious soca beat and formula that practically everyone else also adopted within a few years of its introduction.

    Today Shorty's Soca style is the one that 90% of other calypso musicians have adopted while no one plays Wellington russo-kaiso style that Wellington himself abandoned in 1978 in preference for Shorty's soca style.

    Btw here is another 1979 Semp recording that was musically inspired by the work that Carl "Beaver" Henderson did with Shorty. Listen to the same soca beat that Shorty introduced to the music ever present!! This track here is more in the vein of Shorty's "Who God Bless" speed wise with an excellent arrangement.

    Poser - Woman Of the Land (1979)

    Arranged by Carl "Beaver" Henderson

    Oh btw "Indrani" can be regarded as the very first chutney-soca track but that fusion that Shorty did was not embraced by the East Indian population in T&T until he recorded the more spiritual track "Shanti Om" in 1978.
    It's likely that Chaman was referring to Shorty's "Shanti Om" when he boasted that SEMP Studios recorded the very first chutney records. However Shanti Om is more accurately a chutney-soca as opposed to a chutney.

    Take a listen to Shorty's "Shanti Om" below then take a listen to two earlier chutney-soca tracks that Shorty did that were not on the Semp label. If we wish to recognise the two earlier tracks "Kalo Gee" and "Indrani" as chutney-soca tracks then the first ever chutney-soca tracks were not on the Semp Recording label.

    Lord Shorty - Om Shanti Om (from album "Soca Explosion" 1978)


    Lord Shorty - Kalo Gee Bull Bull (from album "The Loveman" 1973/74)


    Lord Shorty - Indrani (from album "Gone Gone Gone" late 1972)
    Rather than respond in an intelligent fashion, you resort to attaching my nationality. Well, i don't have time to read the tripe above. Some one who contradict themselves so many times shouldn't be taken seriously. Furthermore, I communicate with others who are far more knowledgeable about the music than you are. Why don't you answer the man's question from the Shadowlingo blog. You seem to have plenty of time to respond to me.

    Socapro says:
    January 26, 2015 at 1:38 am
    Soca was invented and then defined by Shorty and the main musician who backed Shorty in his early soca recordings was Ed Watson and not Art De Coteau.
    Art De Coteau was happy to work on Shadow’s “Bass man” in 1974 because it was still basically a calypso with a traditional calypso beat but a modernized bass line in certain sections of the song.
    In the very same year 1974 Art De Coteau was not happy working on Shorty’s “Endless Vibrations” mainly because of the total change in the beat in Shorty’s song which is why Art De Coteau refused to finish arranging the song and Ed Watson had to be hired by Shorty to complete arrangements on “Endless Vibrations”.
    Art De Coteau resistant to soca when Shorty when Shorty was introducing it which is why Shorty had to turn to Ed Watson and Pelham Goddard to a lesser extent.
    The main difference between calypso and soca was the introduction of the new beat and it was not just the bassline changes that made soca different to calypso.
    I will add more on this to explain later but Shorty did what he did first and the others followed.
    Ed Watson and Pelham Goddard were also very important to the establishment of Soca much more so than Art De Coteau who was initially against soca music was.
    It was only because he worked with Shadow why Art De Coteau eventually got won over to join the soca bandwagon.



    Reply
    Lawrence Waldron says:
    January 26, 2015 at 5:06 pm
    While this post begins with an absolute and dogmatic statement about an act of ‘invention’, it provides some interesting biographical insights into De Coteau’s thinking circa 1974. Socapro, would you mind telling us where you learned these details so we might expand our research, even if it is from the personal experience of having been there on the spot as it were.

    My next question is if, as you say, it is working with Shadow that won a stubborn (i.e., Soca-intransigent or Soca-resistant) De Coteau over to Soca, then at what point did Shadow become an exponent of Soca (as to begin De Coateau’s conversion)? And what effected/affected Shadow’s ‘conversion’?
    Pendant to these questions are the following:

    If Bass Man is essentially a Calypso with only some minor (and uninfluential?) manipulations of the role of the bass, what other Calypsoes from the time, or before (not after, I guess, since soon afterwards Shadow would be playing Soca) are comparable to this composition? (i.e., in terms of the rhythms and other musical structures you mention)

    and

    If not Bass Man, what would you say is Shadow’s first Soca composition?



    Reply
    merepamphleteer says:
    January 28, 2015 at 7:25 pm
    As a keen observer of soca’s evolution, I wonder where Nearlin Taitt falls into the equation as I think he was listed as one of the arrangers on Shorty’s “Endless Vibrations” LP. Interestingly too, I just stumbled upon an article from the Sunday Express of March 13, 1994 in which Kim Johnson, in assessing Shadow’s work, writes:
    “The emphasis on heavy bass rhythms makes Shadow more a progenitor of soca than anyone else, Shorty included. For the main ingredient that distinguishes soca from calypso isn’t any particular rhythm: there are many different rhythms in soca, such as the Baptist rhythms in Superblue’s music, or the Indian rhythms in Shorty’s. Rather, it’s the dominance of the bass lines which separated soca from calypso and which makes Shadow’s music particularly in tune with today’s youth, who have been so influenced by reggae and dub.”
    Indeed, “Bones of Contention on the Soca Boat” is ah borse title to spark, guide, and facilitate this discussion! Respect….
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

  5. #35
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    Rather than respond in an intelligent fashion, you resort to attaching my nationality. Well, i don't have time to read the tripe above. Some one who contradict themselves so many times shouldn't be taken seriously. Furthermore, I communicate with others who are far more knowledgeable about the music than you are. Why don't you answer the man's question from the Shadowlingo blog. You seem to have plenty of time to respond to me.
    You really are a pu$$y aren't you?

    I never insulted Guyanese, I simply pointed out the fact that you are stuck in a time warp and that I was hoping that most other Guyanese are not stuck in a time warp like yourself. The reality is that most of the Guyanese who I know in London are more into back in time than into modern music so it is a legitimate hope for me to have. Why should you take someone's positive hope for most Guyanese as an insult unless you are some kind of oversensitive pu$$y?

    Regards to me so-call contradicting myself that is a cop-out since you already said that you did not read my reply so how do you know that I contradicted myself anywhere in my reply?

    Guess you figure that you can't argue against anything I stated in a logical way so the best strategy for you to save face is to come with a typical cop-out argument to avoid dealing with any of the facts that I pointed out as you always tend to do when you realize that your lame red-herring argument has been exposed.

    As I pointed out Shorty's "Indrani" was a prototype track and any intelligent person who is aware of Shorty's music catalog will be more than aware that Shorty's music kept evolving after he did "Indrani" to such an extent that he ending up creating 3 related music genres; soca, chutney-soca and Jamoo-soca and Shorty even contributed to early cadence-lypso after he visited Dominica.

    Everything I stated in my post is factual and based on actual musical recordings some of which I posted in my reply to confirm the accuracy of what I pointed out.

    Regards to the Blog I only just checked my email account I used to sign-up to the Blog and have now registered for notifications so I will know in the future when I get replies to my posts on there.
    Been busy doing other stuff and I am not in the habit of visiting that Blog but will reply to the questions within the next couple of hours.

    Just to say here that I believe Nerlin Taitt moved from Jamaica to Canada in August 1968 and worked on Shorty's "Gone Gone Gone" album which Shorty recorded when he visited Canada in 1972. Shorty had previously known Nerlin Taitt from back in Trinidad where they became good friends while Taitt led and arranged music for the Southern All Stars Steelband of which Shorty was also a member and did some of the band's musical arrangements as well.

    Two of the tracks that were originally on Shorty's 1972 “Gone Gone Gone” album (“Soul Calypso Music” and “Bajan Gyal”) were also included on Shorty's 1974 "Endless Vibrations" album so maybe that is why Nerlin Taitt may also have been credited on the "Endless Vibrations" album cover for working on those two particular tracks that were also featured on Shorty's "Endless Vibrations" album.

    I also believe that Nerlin Taitt could also have worked on Shorty's 1975 crossover album called "Love In The Caribbean" recorded in Trinidad but I need to find my album jacket to double-check. I believe both albums "Gone Gone Gone" and "Love In The Caribbean" contain a couple of reggae tracks that Taitt played on.

    PS:
    I doubt very much that there is anyone that you know that is more knowledgeable about Soca than I am.
    Your problem is simply false pride and being too ignorant to learn or believing you know more about the difference between calypso and soca than you actually do.
    Every music genre has its own trademark beat and that is the main element that distinguishes soca from calypso apart from the change from walking bass lines to matching two-note/three-note and rolling bass lines.
    Shadow’s calypso basslines were more rolling basslines similar to the basslines found in reggae music while Shorty's soca basslines were more two-note or three-note bass lines that match and emphasize the soca beat.
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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    Every Tueday 6-8pm & Friday 8-10pm GMT
    On www.HavitLive.co.uk (99.1FM);
    www.facebook.com/socaphd
    email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

    Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
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  6. #36
    Registered Member VINCYPOWA's Avatar VINCYPOWA is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socapro View Post
    I sincerely hope that not all Guyanese are stuck in a time warp as yourself. You seem to be too stuck to understand that Shorty was evolving and developing his soca music all the time from when he first started experimenting in 1971/72.

    The experiments that Shorty did with " Indrani" helped him to develop the soca beat but anyone who has followed Shorty's music will be aware that he moved on from "Indrani" which was Shorty's first prototype track as far as the development of the new soca beat is concerned. Shorty moved on from "Soul Calypso Music" and "Indrani" both recorded in 1972 to "Endless Vibrations" in 1974 then to "Sweet Music" in late 1975/early 1976 then to "Vibrations Groove" and "Sokah Soul of Calypso" in 1977 and finally to "Who God Bless" and "Shanti Om" in 1978.

    During this period in the 1970's Shorty's music evolved and matured from being very sexual to being very spiritual and only a slow Guyanese like yourself is unable to see that and is still stuck on "Indrani" recorded in 1972 while trying to ignore all the more developed soca music productions that Shorty did in the 1970's.
    Shorty mainly referred to "Indrani" as the beginning of what became soca because the musical fusion he did in that song is what led Shorty to develop the new soca beat and to move away from using the traditional calypso beat in his music. It is the new soca beat which is the main ingredient along with the complimentary basslines which helped to define soca as a distinct new music genre apart from calypso.

    I can understand why you are finding this fact so difficult to understand as many folks don't understand the difference in musical structure between calypso and soca.

    Shorty kept evolving his music from his experiments with "Indrani" in 1972 until he left the soca scene in 1980 for a period before returning with his fully developed conscious Jamoo soca style.


    The rhythm or drum-beat in that “Soca Music” song you posted is the same Soca drum beat that can be found in Shorty's "Sweet Music" and "Endless Vibrations".

    And btw Shorty's "Sweet Music" has more soul and funk influence in it than 99% of the 1970's soca tracks that were ever made. The only group who possibly out-did Shorty’s "Sweet Music" in terms of using soul and funk riffs was Kalyan and that is only because they took Shorty's "Sweet Music" and added one of the funkiest basslines that was ever used in any soca track.

    I don't know what planet you have been living on or if your brain and hearing is functioning properly but the reality is that 90% of the calypso musicians who switched from calypso to soca in the 1970’s followed the formula that Shorty introduced. There are hundreds of recordings avaiable to confirm it so no amount of typing and old talk will change that reality.

    They all copied Shorty’s formula and added their own twist starting from Ed Watson, then Maestro and Pelham Goddard, Kalyan, Rose, Nelson, Duke, Merchant, Carl Beaver, Clive Bradley, etc. In fact Shorty’s style became so influential that even Wellington and Shadow adopted the Soca beat into their music by 1978.

    No one followed Wellington’s russo-kaiso style and hardly anyone was able to copy Shadow’s unique calypso style which is why Shadow’s music sounds so unique even to this day. In fact Wellington whole-heartedly abandoned his russo-kaiso style in 1978 got rid of the musicians he was working with and hired Ed Watson to work on his 1977/78 album. It was Ed Watson (the very first musician and arranger to adopt Shorty's soca style and to start spreading it) who musically helped Wellington to quickly abandon his russo-kaiso in preference for Shorty's much more popular soca style.

    The more 1970's soca you listen to is the more you will realize what a major impact Shorty had on the music and you have to be living in denial or in the twilight zone to not realize that. Practically all of T&T’s top musicians in the know acknowledged in the 1970’s that Shorty was the main man who got the soca boat built and sailing even naming it, defining its meaning and breaking down it's structure on record to help other musicians better understand how to formulate and structure their soca music.

    Regards Art De Coteau, he was initially resistant to soca when Shorty was introducing it which is why Shorty had to bring in Ed Watson to finish the arrangements on his 1974 recording of “Endless Vibrations”. Art De Coteau was not happy with how Shorty was restructuring the beat and other elements of calypso music while Ed Watson was a lot more open-minded. Maestro also had the same problem with Art De Coteau which is why Art De Coteau worked on the uptempo calypso tracks on his early 1977 “Rampage” album while Pelham Goddard was hired to arrange the soca tracks.

    As for Grant he never did soca in the 1970's, what he did was kaiso-soul or whatever he called it and it was the Trini musicians like Shorty, Ed Watson, Pelham Goddard and Kalyan who did proper soca versions of Grant's tracks “Hello Africa” and “Neighbour Neighbour”.

    It should also be noted that Shorty experimented with fusing soul with calypso in 1972 on his track called “Soul Calypso Music” which was just before he came up with his infectious soca beat and formula that practically everyone else also adopted within a few years of its introduction.

    Today Shorty's Soca style is the one that 90% of other calypso musicians have adopted while no one plays Wellington russo-kaiso style that Wellington himself abandoned in 1978 in preference for Shorty's soca style.

    Btw here is another 1979 Semp recording that was musically inspired by the work that Carl "Beaver" Henderson did with Shorty. Listen to the same soca beat that Shorty introduced to the music ever present!! This track here is more in the vein of Shorty's "Who God Bless" speed wise with an excellent arrangement.

    Poser - Woman Of the Land (1979)

    Arranged by Carl "Beaver" Henderson

    Oh btw "Indrani" can be regarded as the very first chutney-soca track but that fusion that Shorty did was not embraced by the East Indian population in T&T until he recorded the more spiritual track "Shanti Om" in 1978.
    It's likely that Chaman was referring to Shorty's "Shanti Om" when he boasted that SEMP Studios recorded the very first chutney records. However Shanti Om is more accurately a chutney-soca as opposed to a chutney.

    Take a listen to Shorty's "Shanti Om" below then take a listen to two earlier chutney-soca tracks that Shorty did that were not on the Semp label. If we wish to recognise the two earlier tracks "Kalo Gee" and "Indrani" as chutney-soca tracks then the first ever chutney-soca tracks were not on the Semp Recording label.

    Lord Shorty - Om Shanti Om (from album "Soca Explosion" 1978)


    Lord Shorty - Kalo Gee Bull Bull (from album "The Loveman" 1973/74)


    Lord Shorty - Indrani (from album "Gone Gone Gone" late 1972)
    DUDE, STOP YOUR DELUSIONAL AND IDIOTIC TRIPE.

    SHORTY'S MUSIC was STRICTLY BORROWED from AMERICAN MUSIC, DISCO and FUNK.

    As a MATTER of FACT, the SO-CALLED SOCA BEAT can be HEARD in MANY DISCO and FUNK MUSIC from that ERA.

    U CAN even START with this SONG from 1973 or thereabout.



    U just CREATING FART out of your HEAD and THINK that you're SAYING something FACTUAL or INTELLIGENT.

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    Registered Member VINCYPOWA's Avatar VINCYPOWA is offline
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    EVEN THE DEMONSTRATION by LORD SHORTY in VIBRATIONS GROOVE from 1977 was another STOLEN or UNORIGINAL IDEA.

    Here is the MERRY MEN out of BARBADOS in 1972 DOING the SAME THING SHORTY did in VIBRATIONS GROOVE.





    MOREOVER, SHORTY'S SOUL CALYPSO wasn't EVEN ORIGINAL, because there are songs with the same TITLE before HIS.

    TRINIDAD AINT INVENT or CREATE SHIT.

    They BORROWED and COPIED other PEOPLE'S ORIGINAL IDEAS and TRY to CLAIM it as theirs. PLAIN and SIMPLE!!!!!

    YUHHHHHHHHHH SEEEEEEEEEEE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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    Registered Member VINCYPOWA's Avatar VINCYPOWA is offline
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    SOCA-AMATEUR is JUST PULLING SHIT OUT of his ASS and then TRY to SPIN it LIKE he is ACTUALLY MAKING SENSE. But all U have to do is just LOOK BEYOND his AMATEUR ATTEMPT at SOPHISTRY and INSULTS (DONE TO DISTRACT) and you will see how his WHOLE ARGUMENT FALLS apart when U DISSECT it.

    YUHHHHHHH SEEEEEEEEE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE

  9. #39
    Paradise! Professor Abughani's Avatar Professor Abughani is offline
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    Everyone playing Columbus here.

  10. #40
    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    According to Stan Chaman, the founder of Semp records, Shorty was a "soul man." He travelled with an entourage and dressed up like "Shaft." It's easy to detect the heavy soul influence in his music. I always preferred his songs with Indian melodies like "Om Shanti Om" or "Zena." But the overwhelming influence on Shorty's music was soul, even his vocals betrayed his US soul leanings. Chaman mentions when Shorty came under the influence of one, "Ras Michael" and he moved in a more spiritual direction. His LP with "Who God Bless" was recorded at Semp also, although it was released on another label. Chaman's childhood friend Andre Tanker, an underrated visionary who does not get enough credit for changing the music, played on the album. Everything with socapro is Shorty. Notice that he doesn't mention Watson anymore. As Rudder sang in is tribute to panmen; "not one name will i call, because to name a few will will make the others feel small." Calypso to Soca was an evolution with more than one creator. Time and more objective scholarship will draw the others in. Anyway, I have to rush off to work.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

  11. #41
    Girl Crush Mrs. Campbell's Avatar Mrs. Campbell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    According to Stan Chaman, the founder of Semp records, Shorty was a "soul man." He travelled with an entourage and dressed up like "Shaft." It's easy to detect the heavy soul influence in his music. I always preferred his songs with Indian melodies like "Om Shanti Om" or "Zena." But the overwhelming influence on Shorty's music was soul, even his vocals betrayed his US soul leanings. Chaman mentions when Shorty came under the influence of one, "Ras Michael" and he moved in a more spiritual direction. His LP with "Who God Bless" was recorded at Semp also, although it was released on another label. Chaman's childhood friend Andre Tanker, an underrated visionary who does not get enough credit for changing the music, played on the album. Everything with socapro is Shorty. Notice that he doesn't mention Watson anymore. As Rudder sang in is tribute to panmen; "not one name will i call, because to name a few will will make the others feel small." Calypso to Soca was an evolution with more than one creator. Time and more objective scholarship will draw the others in. Anyway, I have to rush off to work.
    Visualizing him (Shorty) walking around hot ass Trinidad and the Caribbean in a leather trench coat and turtle neck sweater.

    [Isaac Hayes voice]Can you dig it! [Isaac Hayes voice]


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  12. #42
    Registered User dedetriniking's Avatar dedetriniking is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    According to Stan Chaman, the founder of Semp records, Shorty was a "soul man." He travelled with an entourage and dressed up like "Shaft." It's easy to detect the heavy soul influence in his music. I always preferred his songs with Indian melodies like "Om Shanti Om" or "Zena." But the overwhelming influence on Shorty's music was soul, even his vocals betrayed his US soul leanings. Chaman mentions when Shorty came under the influence of one, "Ras Michael" and he moved in a more spiritual direction. His LP with "Who God Bless" was recorded at Semp also, although it was released on another label. Chaman's childhood friend Andre Tanker, an underrated visionary who does not get enough credit for changing the music, played on the album. Everything with socapro is Shorty. Notice that he doesn't mention Watson anymore. As Rudder sang in is tribute to panmen; "not one name will i call, because to name a few will will make the others feel small." Calypso to Soca was an evolution with more than one creator. Time and more objective scholarship will draw the others in. Anyway, I have to rush off to work.
    Seawall that soul argument bolsters the other point of view more than your own. Everybody who was black was into soul in the 70s. Whether you were talking about wellington or maestro or shorty...soul was ever present in all of their music..the calypso music of the time was invaded by soul.....no one is saying that is not the case.

    But Shorty's music then became distinguishable from the others.....what was the distinguishing factor? And what was the name given to the music with this distinction?
    Those are the questions you must ask yourself.

    So it was all calypso.....even when soul came along it was still calypso....then someone did something a little different and named that music with the different beat...then in the end they all came under the umbrella of the new name.

    Simple.

    Socapro likes this.
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  13. #43
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    According to Stan Chaman, the founder of Semp records, Shorty was a "soul man." He travelled with an entourage and dressed up like "Shaft." It's easy to detect the heavy soul influence in his music. I always preferred his songs with Indian melodies like "Om Shanti Om" or "Zena." But the overwhelming influence on Shorty's music was soul, even his vocals betrayed his US soul leanings. Chaman mentions when Shorty came under the influence of one, "Ras Michael" and he moved in a more spiritual direction. His LP with "Who God Bless" was recorded at Semp also, although it was released on another label. Chaman's childhood friend Andre Tanker, an underrated visionary who does not get enough credit for changing the music, played on the album. Everything with socapro is Shorty. Notice that he doesn't mention Watson anymore. As Rudder sang in is tribute to panmen; "not one name will i call, because to name a few will will make the others feel small." Calypso to Soca was an evolution with more than one creator. Time and more objective scholarship will draw the others in. Anyway, I have to rush off to work.
    There Seawall goes with his obsession with spinning and lying about Socapro again.
    Your argument that I am only crediting Shorty and not giving Ed Watson any credit is a completely bogus and desperate one as I have credited how important Ed Watson is to the spreading and establishment of soca in this very thread.

    Here is Quote from my post #33 above in this very thread about how important I believe Ed Watson was to the spreading of Soca. And I have said on many occasions on here that after Shorty that I regard Ed Watson as the most important person to the establishment and spreading of Shorty’s soca formula.

    Quote:
    I don't know what planet you (Seawall) have been living on or if your brain and hearing is functioning properly but the reality is that 90% of the calypso musicians who switched from calypso to soca in the 1970’s followed the formula that Shorty introduced. There are hundreds of recordings available to confirm it so no amount of typing and old talk will change that reality.

    They all copied Shorty’s formula and added their own twist starting from Ed Watson, then Maestro and Pelham Goddard, Kalyan, Rose, Nelson, Duke, Merchant, Carl Beaver, Clive Bradley, etc. In fact Shorty’s style became so influential that even Wellington and Shadow adopted the Soca beat into their music by 1978.

    No one followed Wellington’s russo-kaiso style and hardly anyone was able to copy Shadow’s unique calypso style which is why Shadow’s music sounds so unique even to this day. In fact Wellington whole-heartedly abandoned his russo-kaiso style in 1978 got rid of the musicians he was working with and hired Ed Watson to work on his 1977/78 album. It was Ed Watson (the very first musician and arranger to adopt Shorty's soca style and to start spreading it) who musically helped Wellington to quickly abandon his russo-kaiso in preference for Shorty's much more popular soca style in 1977/78.


    It was Ed Watson and His Orchestra who backed Shorty on “Indrani” and "Art Of Making Love" which he recorded in 1972 after coming back from recording his “Gone Gone Gone “ album in Canada.
    It was also Ed Watson who backed Shorty on all his experimental tracks on his “Love Man” album recorded in 1973.
    It was also Ed Watson that Shorty had to call in when he got resistance from Art De Coteau in implementing some of his new innovative ideas when he was recording “Endless Vibrations” in 1974.
    It was Ed Watson who worked as main arranger on Shorty’s “Sweet Music” album recorded in 1975.
    It was only after 1976 when Shorty decided to form his own band the "Vibrations International" that Shorty stopped working with Ed Watson and became the main arranger for his own band alongside Frankie Callender. This was soon after Shorty brought Ella Andell into the music business and produced her first two soca hits “Second Fiddle” and “Hello Africa”.

    I even created a dedicated Soca Timeline Thread a while back (Educational Debate: Nothing NEW has been done in SOCA music since the 90's!) listing the importance of Ed Watson and all the others to the evolution of Soca which Seawall commented on so I don’t know why he is now trying to lie to himself and the forum that Socapro no longer recognizes the important contributions of Ed Watson.

    Don’t know what medication this Seawall character is on but it seems to affecting his honesty and logic.
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  14. #44
    Registered User Seawall's Avatar Seawall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedetriniking View Post
    Seawall that soul argument bolsters the other point of view more than your own. Everybody who was black was into soul in the 70s. Whether you were talking about wellington or maestro or shorty...soul was ever present in all of their music..the calypso music of the time was invaded by soul.....no one is saying that is not the case.

    But Shorty's music then became distinguishable from the others.....what was the distinguishing factor? And what was the name given to the music with this distinction?
    Those are the questions you must ask yourself.

    So it was all calypso.....even when soul came along it was still calypso....then someone did something a little different and named that music with the different beat...then in the end they all came under the umbrella of the new name.

    Simple.



    Dude, back then everyone had their own sound. Kitch had his own sound, Sparrow, Rose, Shadow. Nelson, etc. I have Shorty's music from the 70's and except for a few cuts, it's primarily Afro kaiso, with little traces of Indian music. I have Kitch's first forays into soca also and it definitely did not follow this Afro Indian formula. Maestro, Rose, Stalin, Shadow, Valentino, none of their late 70's records followed this formula yet they were tagged as soca. I've more than proved my argument that multiple strains of the music were branded as soca. Since this is the case, then one man should not receive sole credit. Furthermore, how many of you have the records we've been discussing. I don't mean youtube videos, but actual albums or album rips. Sadly, these important records have not been transferred to CD. In the case of Semp records, the masters have been burned, so there's only vinyl remaining.
    "Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

    “If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.” Frederick Douglass

  15. #45
    Repect Our Soca Pioneers Socapro's Avatar Socapro is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seawall View Post
    Dude, back then everyone had their own sound. Kitch had his own sound, Sparrow, Rose, Shadow. Nelson, etc. I have Shorty's music from the 70's and except for a few cuts, it's primarily Afro kaiso, with little traces of Indian music. I have Kitch's first forays into soca also and it definitely did not follow this Afro Indian formula. Maestro, Rose, Stalin, Shadow, Valentino, none of their late 70's records followed this formula yet they were tagged as soca. I've more than proved my argument that multiple strains of the music were branded as soca. Since this is the case, then one man should not receive sole credit. Furthermore, how many of you have the records we've been discussing. I don't mean youtube videos, but actual albums or album rips. Sadly, these important records have not been transferred to CD. In the case of Semp records, the masters have been burned, so there's only vinyl remaining.
    The only person giving Shorty sole credit for soca is folks who live in the Twilight Zone like yourself.
    What we are crediting Shorty for is being the first to come with his particular formula that he branded as soca and it is not Shorty's fault that his formula had a major impact and almost everyone else followed his formula while at the same time adding their own twist to it which is only natural and inevitable.

    Kitchener’s first forays into soca was courtesy of Ed Watson after Kitch had fallen out with anti-soca arranger Art De Coteau in 1977 and needed another top arranger to work on his 1978 album “Melodies of the 21st Century” recorded in the latter half of 1977.

    In 1976 and during the T&T 1977 Carnival season Kitchener was one of many older calypsonians who was critical of the new soca music that Shorty, Ed Watson, Maestro and Pelham Goddard were producing but Kitch’s anti-soca stance quickly changed after Ed Watson composed the music for “Sugar Bum Bum” and asked Kitch to the write lyrics for the track while they were recording songs for Kitch’s “Melodies of the 21st Century” album.

    Listen to this Pelham Goddard interview to confirm exactly what caused Kitchener to record his first soca tracks in latter half of 1977. Go to 6:42 in interview to hear Pelham talk about the recording of "Sugar Bum Bum".

    Pelham Goddard explains how Shorty came up with the name for Sokah/Soca in 1975

    Pelham describes the advent of soca music, outlining some of the players and factors that had an impact on its emergence. At 3:18 in video Pelham explains how Shorty came up with the name Sokah for the new music meaning the Soul or deeper musical expression of Calypso and it was not American Soul and Calypso as many people mistakenly believe.

    Btw I have most of the soca music on vinyl from the 1970’s which I can reference to confirm recordings dates etc in my soca arguments and I have been clued up like this about soca music and who are the main pioneers responsible since the late 1980’s to early 1990's long before the internet became popular and we started to have soca debates on forums like this.

    You (Seawall) on the other hand according to your recent admission now seem to be trying to acquire most of the 1970’s soca on vinyl so you can start to gain a better understanding of what you have been arguing about all these years and even with that you still don’t seem to be getting any more logical in your arguments.

    For example you don’t seem to be logical enough to recognise the fact that even though Shorty developed his soca beat from the rhythmic fusion he did in “Indrani” he was still free and able to use the beat he developed in future soca tracks without the need to use East Indian instruments and for all his songs to be chutney-soca from that point onwards. Shorty clearly explained the process of what he did to develop the soca beat in a number of his interviews and it is clearly backed up by his music recordings.

    Therefore your continued argument about looking for every song that Shorty did after “Indrani” to be a chutney soca to recognise that Shorty used the soca beat he developed as the main rhythmic engine for his soca music after “Indrani” is as dumb an argument as I have ever heard and demonstrates a clear case of some sort of mental disability on your part.

    Btw you need to stop coming on this board and making red-herring arguments about what Socapro supposedly said or did not say and when you are exposed as having lied you are not even man enough to have the decency to offer an apology. It this because your lies are deliberate and based on some sort of desperation?
    Catch me as Soca PhD Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT
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