VP?
Seawall?
Winn Prixie?
Ushawishi?

1) VP does not seem to have a solid view on what is Soca and his argument..he just seems to go along for argument sake, his problem is with people mentioning the use of Indo instruments in Shorty's early Soca music. He also believes that Soca existed in every island before the Trinidad media and its power coined Soca and marketed it as their own.

2) Seawall just seem to think that the definition of Soca is narrow, never involved Indian music and its just because Trinis are supposedly shame of their African roots, they try to over exaggerate the influence of Indo music on early Soca. He also seem to think that Grant's Hello Africa is the Soca! Also he posts about Rose saying she had the first Soca song..so if I come out and say I had the first Soca song..would u believe me?

3) Winn Dixie believes that Soca did not originate in TNT and Trinis stole it from Eddy Grant (a Guyanese) so we are shame to say that a Guyanese invented our national music.

4) Ushawishi maintains that Soca started in Trinidad but the influence of Dominican music is denied by Shorty.


All in all we see the argument is all about sticking it to Trinis for some selfish reason...anytime someone could step to me and say Black skinned Blue eyed boy or Hello Africa sounds anything like Soca then I cannot take your input seriously.

All in all, some people have some good points..even if Indrani was what Shorty accredited as his first Soca song, the true Soca sound evolved a bit later on...with influences coming from different artists...the defined Soca song is a bit different from Indrani.

Interesting summary

Good summary!!

Because Shorty defined Soca by its rhythmic structure in addition to being the soul of calypso, he has to go back to "Indrani" as the start because that song was the inspiration for him to bring about the change in rhythmic structure that he introduced to the music in the early 70's.
But certain fellas on here are choosing to ignore that as much as "Indrani” was the start of the idea for changing the rhythmic structure from Shorty's perspective, it still was not the final product!

The very first song where Shorty arrived at the formula he was looking for was "Endless Vibrations" and once that was recorded everything else soca wise flowed from there. Don’t forget that Indrani was condemned by most in Trinidad & Tobago when it was released so Shorty still had to go back to the drawing board which is exactly what he did! However without “Indrani”, Shorty may never have arrived at the full soca formula with new beat etc as that is where the idea for the change of rhythmic structure that he introduced started in his mind!

This is why Shorty credits "Indrani" as the beginning but it clearly was not the end!
In fact Soca music has continually evolved from its very inception with other artists putting their own twist but Shorty based upon musical evidence is beyond doubt the main man behind soca's inception in the early 70’s.

There is no way to get around that fact, and who no like it bite it, as the music is there to back the talk where Shorty’s tremendous contribution is concerned!!

So to me Shorty is beyond doubt the Father of Soca but this does not mean that he did it all by himself, no sane person ever argued that point as that is an insane and bogus argument!!

Big-ups also go out to Maestro, Ed Watson, Pelham Goddard, Kalyan, Shadow, Rose, Merchant, Bro. Mudada, King Wellington, Lord Nelson, Kitchener, Duke and all of the other early contributors and soca pioneers who helped to establish soca music and to save calypso from what could have been an eventual death if calypso had refused to move with the times!! Honourable mentions also go out to Beckett and Arrow as non-Trinis for their early soca contributions!
Love all of these artists from the bottom of my heart and I sincerely thank them for our soca culture that we can be so proud of today!!

__________________

Aka Soca PhD your no.1 Soca music "Edutainer"
Catch me Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT from London
On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (96.6FM)
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Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz & the Original Best & Most Famous Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

Some imixers are the ones denying Shorty dominican influence... I maintain that Ras Shorty the man and his life has no value to many people on imix calling his name other than what he said Socah was...

besides dat I just love music... and have alot of respect for many a great musician dat are getting chewed up by fans daily on imix including Shorty...

Hop skip twist bend etc doesn't matter because with groove vibrations any denial of Dominican influence on Ras Shorty's music should be moot... and dat isn't really no big deal in the general scheme of things musically as it is an extremely common occurrence...

I only aim to share our similar but very different interpretation of our culture didn't mean to detract...didn't even think of myself as a detractor I only try to get certain informations while sharing...

__________________

I'm a man of the past,living in the present, but walking in the future.
A cow born in a pig pen is still a cow. ...Rastafari...

"Self-Realization is the knowing in all parts of body, mind, and soul that you are now in possession of the kingdom of God; that you do not have to pray that it come to you; that God’s omnipresence is your omnipresence; and that all that you need to do is improve your knowing.”

ok I agree with your assertions, dont mean to call u a detractor because u are not really as malicious as the others, just shortlisting what people spend most of their arguing about...we just go around in circles on here.

There is a strong cadence influence in many early soca tracks most definitely but that was more down to Ed Watson than to Shorty as Ed Watson was a big fan of Cadence, Compa, Latin and African music!! Ed Watson did a lot of music research and introduced a lot of other musical influences into his soca music and arrangements!

Here is a typical Ed Watson soca arrangement with a cadence flavour:


And here is Ed Watson's cadence-lypso arrangement of Shorty's "E Peter":


Note that Ed Watson was the arranger of Shorty's "E Pete" also found on his 1976 "Sweet Music" album and had a major hand in how that final track sounded, in fact just as much influence as Shorty who also provide the lyrics and some of the musical ideas for that song! Ed Watson and Shorty were the perfect Soca marriage and it’s a pity they fell out and didn’t do more tracks together after Shorty’s 1976 “Sweet Music” album!

Respeck!

__________________

Aka Soca PhD your no.1 Soca music "Edutainer"
Catch me Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT from London
On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (96.6FM)
www.facebook.com/socaphd
www.twitter.com/socaphd
email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz & the Original Best & Most Famous Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

plenty of dem man had same flavor and fall out den want to downplay each other but that is dere personal business and I will limit how far I get involved in dat .... because dat again is a very very common occurence in music...

Shorty is a "Dominican" to many ... dah doh mean he not a trini dah juss mean like is what Claudette Peters is right now... on some people personal levels it even much deeper dan dat...couple dat to de fact dat Gordon Henderson Himself write an email to personally address an imix dispute...so knowing de influence and world wide attention de world get from Cadence-Lypso its not surprising Ed Watson would show it as well...

anyways i juss wanted to vibes on dis ...How far fetched is it to you personally that it is possible dat all Shorty did was define what was taking place all over de caribbean with de exception dat de biggest population did not care about de "lesser" peoples opinions....

Check dis out everybody been making soca from birth(its) somehow all accepted soca based on what it is musically ... people from V.I know is not dat definition dere music holds, people from antigua, st kitts, vincy, Bdos, greenz, guyana etc...

De whole caribbean had de same base influences we were basically on de same movements, polictics didn't really sink in nations were just gaining independence from de colonial masters... people making de musics in general across de board was of a different mindset ...

I take all of dese fings and more into consideration so my opinions of music agrees with all of all you...Trinidad was de and is de birthplace of de word soca no scene majority rules ... all now some doesnt call V.I music soca and have dis easy feeling because dey know de local special seasonings gone but de vibes still nice...not just trinis.

educational material should always be up for revision...music doesn't lie... technically is de journalist who create "Soca" cause he didn't care to do a thorough spell check cause Shorty correct him afterwards but people doh listen...

__________________

I'm a man of the past,living in the present, but walking in the future.
A cow born in a pig pen is still a cow. ...Rastafari...

"Self-Realization is the knowing in all parts of body, mind, and soul that you are now in possession of the kingdom of God; that you do not have to pray that it come to you; that God’s omnipresence is your omnipresence; and that all that you need to do is improve your knowing.”

You people don't realize how much you contradict yourselves. By your own definitions, the music today would not be called soca and yet you critise my broader definition of soca. About the Indian influence, my assertion has always been that it was primarily melodic rather than rhythmic (though it is hardly there in present day soca). I have never stated that i believed that Grant created soca. However, to totally dismiss his music (which many Trinis covered) smacks of bias. If the man was a Trini, then he would be one of your greatest cultural treasures. The Rose post was vital for any soca fan. Her opinion is her own. However, it proves that the verdict is still out. Shadow has made the same assertions and so have supporters of the late Maestro. I once agreed that Shorty was the music's creator also, but then I was seeing an older Trini woman from Point who told me about Maestro's importance to the evolution of the music. I don't follow blindly.....i curious about how things come to be like any serious artist.

__________________

"Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

'It was 'Maestro' who wrote "Endless Vibration" for 'Shorty'. He used to write all those songs for 'Shorty' and he also wrote for 'Sparrow'. "Sa Sa Ya" and all those songs were written by 'Maestro'. Plenty people wrote for 'Sparrow'." — Winsford 'Joker' Devine

Seawell after all the threads that have been created regarding this topic I am absolutely certain that you have a good feel for the answers that each thread would eventually generate.

I have discussed this topic with you and VP before and I have decided not to get involved in the revolving door. What you said about "If Grant was a Trini" is true but at the same time you will not get a Trini to accept his claim to 'creating' soca. I don't.... did he contribute... yes I believe that he did as well as many others. We are aware that the music is changing and has done so from the very start. I don't wish to get embroiled in what is happening all over again. However, I do believe that it all started with Shorty but it continued to change with Maestro, Shadow, Wellington, Rose and so many others.

I believe the problem is that people like VP don't want to give Shorty any recognition whatever. That is a major problem... when he named the genre and explained what Soca it to the World and guess what.... NOBODY Complained at the time that he was full of it... NO Musician, No Singer ... NOBODY.... and remember at that time Soca (the name and the music called Soca) was all about Trinidad! The information in brackets was put there to avoid those claiming similar sounding music from the rest of the region - even thought they did not choose to give it a name.

Soca today is not the same... Period! The music called Soca is nothing like the Soca of the early time. We are all aware of that fact. All I have to say is it all started with Shorty... many others added to the music that he started and named and explained. I will give credit to all others who added to the music... I really don't care about that but please acknowledge where it all started even if you don't think Indrani sounded anything like Endless Vibrations... that is where the idea and the music evolved... what is so difficult to accept about that.

The man went so far as to give us Vibrations Groove to explain what Soca is all about - who else did something similar to that?

The man is dead and after his death we have all this bacchanal! This is a sad day for Caribbean people... VP wants to credit America for the start of Soca anybody except a Trini.... Lord will it ever end?!?!

i love de trinis. they claim this and claim dat. wunna is de claimers

listen, as i have stated before, almost every article on this topic has not offered any conclusive evidence of who actually invented this genre of music.
it is no surprise dat de trinis all say dat shorty is de man. on de other hand, grant say he is de man.


if we go on de two chunes, grant's hello africa sounds like soca music we heard in de 90's, 80's, 2000's and today.

at least we can claim something because of our vibrant musical history unlike some.

Doh worry VP Trinis are doing just fine, and when I lay me down to sleep I have restful sleep. Whatever name you use it is always the same. So be it!

No one is contracting themselves but you Seawall!
Every major/mature musical genre has a signature beat and calypso and soca are no exceptions!
We all know what the signature reggae beat is yet reggae has been free to evolve and to develop new hi-breeds or sub-genres like dancehall, reggaeton, bashment, etc! Well soca is similar to reggae in this regard and also had a signature beat from its inception in a similar manner to how reggae had its signature one-drop beat!

Moving on from there, Eddy Grant had little say in the development of Soca but he did put out two great tunes in the early days of soca “Hello” and “Neigbour Neighbour” that were liked and covered (socarised) by some of our Trini Soca pioneers.

Calypso Rose's wrong assertions about starting Soca changes nothing as anyone who knows soca music would know that she was simply following a formula that was already established a few years early by Shorty and the likes before she joined the soca bandwagon and made her major contributions in 1977 and added her personal flavour to the mix.
Shadow on the other was doing his own thing when Shorty came up with the soca formula but once you know what soca is you soon realise that Shadow's early offerings were more calypso than soca but contained Shadow’s distinctive trademark basslines. But even Shadow himself regularly started to incorporate the soca beat into his music from 1977 onwards around the same time that Rose joined in with her offerings.
Brother Mudada, Kitchener, Lord Nelson, Merchant and the others all joined in soon after and from late 1977 onwards with great soca offerings.
Here is a great Soca track by Bother Mudada from late 1977 called "Play My Music":

Brother Mudada - Play My Music (1977):


But I don’t think Brother Mudada will be insincere enough to try to argue that he stated Soca too. Everyone was simply jumping on the bandwagon from 1977 onwards and even older calypsonians like Kitch as well did after openly condemning Shorty for trying to change calypso music.

Btw Seawall, once someone has such a lose definition and lack of understanding of what soca music is as yourself they will NEVER understand or appreciate the significance of what Shorty did but it was still nice debating with you over the past few weeks on this topic.

Hopefully we have all learnt a little something from each other...

What I have learnt is that there are some folks from the other Caribbean countries who feel that T&T are trying to take all the glory and are not giving them their due credit but the reality is that Trinidad is the birthplace of Soca despite your sad grievance!

How come Trinis don't have the same grievance about reggae despite Lynn Tait a Trini being a major contributor to the development of rocksteady and reggae music? Ask yuhself that!
The reason is we already have our own thing so don’t need to try to claim something that was developed by others!

Btw there is very strong connection between early calypso/kaiso and the French-patois speaking islands where kaiso evolved into cadence-lypso which I will go into at another time!

Best regards

__________________

Aka Soca PhD your no.1 Soca music "Edutainer"
Catch me Every Saturday 2-4pm GMT from London
On www.GenesisRadio.co.uk (96.6FM)
www.facebook.com/socaphd
www.twitter.com/socaphd
email: projampro@yahoo.co.uk

Hailing from Trinidad & Tobago and very proud of it!!
Land of Calypso, Steelband, Limbo, Parang, Rapso, Chutney, Soca, Jamoo, Panjazz & the Original Best & Most Famous Caribbean Carnival in the World with no apology!
Together We Aspire & Together We Achieve!!

Trinidad is not unique in this aspect, many islands can claim vibrant musical legacies. In fact, smaller nations like Martinique and Guadeloupe have influenced world pop much more than the much larger T&T. If anything, Trinidad is a major disappointment because it has not reached its full potential. If anything, few outside of the Caribbean take modern soca music seriously, and this was not always the case (I own soca records from Colombia, Latin America, and many parts of Africa). I for one don't buy it, and i don't even pirate it. However, I've spent years collecting the music from the 70's to the early-mid 90's so I have a great collection. Maybe, if Trinis were less accepting of the wine and jam, wave yuh rag, keyboard driven riddems, artists would be pressured to put out quality recordings.
Finally, your comment is obviously a knock on other countries that don't have much of a recording industry, but Trini music was influenced by the tens of thousands of Vincentians, Granadians, and other small island people who moved there over the years. I meet so many Trinis who claim ancestry from one of these small Islands. Americans usually voice the same sentiments when one criticizes their foreign policy.

__________________

"Every onlooker is either a coward or a traitor." — Frantz Fanon

'It was 'Maestro' who wrote "Endless Vibration" for 'Shorty'. He used to write all those songs for 'Shorty' and he also wrote for 'Sparrow'. "Sa Sa Ya" and all those songs were written by 'Maestro'. Plenty people wrote for 'Sparrow'." — Winsford 'Joker' Devine

the biggest disappointment from the region, not only in in music but in every sphere from culture to music to politics to economics is Guyana...talk about a big waste of space. that is why alyuh have no culture and stay jacking Trini style..BOO HOO! LOL, basically Guyanese should not talk cuz little Barbados shipping alyuh back by the thousands yet u here arguing about Soca...why u doh go do something for ur countrymen?