IslandMix - Soca, Reggae, Zouk and Caribbean Entertainment

Okay I have a chupid question David's song Trini to the Bone what is it Calypso, Soca or Socalypso and what's your reasoning.

__________________
Urges Caribbean Americans and immigrants to stand up and be counted in Census 2010. Over $35 billion in federal dollars is going to be decided if its allocated into Caribbean communities and media houses by the government from the results. So make sure to write in your birth place of origin under questions #8 and #9 of the Census form. Email me for more information on helping this process to get us truly respected, counted and empowered.

That's easy...it's soca cuz it's on a soca riddim. :freak

I think if the the question was posed to the masses I think most people would agree with Scorp that soca is derived from calypso but they are two different genres. However, like most things in life, there are some songs that are not clear cut and may have both a soca and calypso feel.

I would say: Calypsoca

Reason: A soca tune with patriotic lyrics done by an artist who is basically a calypsonian.

BTW, JW Records has a whole series of albums out that are
titled like: '94 Calypsoca or Calypsoca Golden Hits. Soca tunes
sung by older Calypsonians.

Ok.a different take on what calypso is about....

Taken from http://www.caribbeantales.org/calypso.html

"Calypso has been described as the popular folksong which emerged from the African people during plantation slavery on the island of Trinidad in the eastern Caribbean. Developing from an oral tradition, most of the early calypsos, and even those of today have never been published in written form. Due to the oral nature of this tradition, this has made it difficult for scholars to do research in this area. William Aho, in his 1984 work states:

It is very difficult to get a total universe of calypso lyrics from which to select a sample. Many, perhaps most, calypsoes [sic] are either not set down in writing or not widely available in written form for public examination.

Questions begin to arise; which calypso songs to pick, what songs you can acquire to transcribe, can you use lyrics that you remember from memory?

For those who have done work in this area, they have linked the naming of this musical tradition to the 1790s, and the term “cariso” which described a “satirical, extemporised Creole song.” Calypso music has been influenced by many genres , including other West Indian Creole song types, like the calinda, which was associated with stick-fighting.

A popular pastime among lower-class black males, stick fighting involved two participants, who were often backed by supporters and musicians from rival plantations who would fight with yard-long canes. Each group had a lead singer, called a "Chantwell" who would begin the fights with songs, boasting of the team’s skill and mocking the adversaries, often with lewd lyrics. Calypso therefore had its origins in the boastings of male sexuality as well as ego inflation, as Boyce Davies states: “…stick-fighting men becom[e] themselves prime examples of male sexuality and prowess. The early stage names spell out this phallic tendency: The Roaring Lion, the Duke of Iron.”

Finding women within this male-centered and male-identified pastime may seem like a difficult task, yet there is evidence of some women involved in the tradition. Although taking on the decidedly male characteristics of the “chantwells” and calinda players – there is legend of Bodicea, who loved to sing, fight and drink just like her male counterparts. Others also existed (although their names and histories were not documented) as well known male calypsonian Atilla the Hun states in one of his songs “…that women…sung calypsoes [sic] ‘long ago.’”



Locating female voices within this music has been a hard task for many historians. When looking at the history of the musical tradition, it is one that is steeped in male aggression, sexual prowess and bravado. Calypso was often used as a social instrument, with the goal of making political commentary on current affairs as it was known for its ability to be an arena for criticism of class domination, imperialism and colonialism. It has also been one of the main vehicles in Trinidadian society, to reflect gender relations in society. The subject matter of many male calypsos encompasses commentary on current events, stories and tales, boasts and insults and racy double entendres.

Calypso music has gone through many stages, including a time of being banned in the 1930s by the state, where calypsonians had to submit their lyrics for approval before signing or performing them. But one of the main changes in calypso music has been its beat. Soca music (often times referred to as sokah with an h - denoting the South Asian influence) developed in 1977. Soca (known as soul calypso) has a more dance beat, which distinguishes it from calypso proper. Soca lyrics are usually short and inconsequential according to some, which the usual theme to “jam and wine” meaning to party and dance.

Calypso and soca music has usually contained erotic themes exhibiting within their lyrics a lustful sexuality. Often to get around this out-and-out vulgarity many calypsonians use double entendres, which allows them to say one thing while meaning another. These erotic and sexually shocking lyrics are usually used to get the attention of the judges in the calypso competitions, and some of the best calypsonians are known to perform this skill well.

Although “double entendres” have mostly been used to get around the erotic and lewd in calypso, Cynthia Mahabir states that there is also another, more subversive reason for these “hidden transcripts”:

…[they] gave voice to common complaints of the disenfranchised…they are culturally encoded with double or multiple meanings accessible only to the initiated…these words and melodies also constitute creative representations and evaluations of all aspects of life around them."

This topic sure did open me eyes to music. I've always thought of Soca and Calypso being two different kinds of music, obviously but hearing the origin and how the history is broken down it does make me question certain songs like 'Soca Train' and 'Trini 2D Bone'. Socalypso or Calypsoca will suit them I think...
But in de end Scorpy your example of makin' a music request at a party is de perfect test. If a man request to hear Calypso and yuh play 'Craziness' in truth de man go watch yuh like yuh mad. What you go say then? "Craziness is Calypso because of de history of how it originated..Blah Blah Blah..."

Yeah i think Soca came from Calypso but it is so different now that it really shouldn't be classified as Calypso. Ent we breakin' down de types of Soca as well? I think of it like this... (yuh might think i crazy but here goes...)

Dey say: woman come from de man's rib, right? (soca come from calypso)
And woMAN take a part of MAN's name, right? (soCA name from CAlypso)
But guess what: A WOMAN IS NOT A MAN! (SOCA IS NOT CALYPSO)

I know dat whole rib story ent true but de analogy made sense to me
Shite regardless of Soca, Calypso, whateva... once it from me culture i luv it!

scorpion... boss, yuh saying xtatik cyan be on de same show as sparrow and legitimately call it a calypso show.. good.. dat is where u from.. i speaking fah what i see year after year on a soca show in barbados...

Gabby
Edwin
Krosfyah
Sq1
Bumba
Kid Site
Classic

pon de same card..... in de same tent..... it is Calypso Show. geezus christ, it ain sound de same but Soca is a subsidiary of calypso.... what is so hard to fathom it is de same ting

Jack by gabby Calypso
Hit it Gabby = calypso...

but because people generating money off of soca.... <<<< which is easier to do.... dem feel to create this alternative genre of music.... such a shame.

Just because everyone is ignorant to the fact that Calypso and Soca are 2 completely different things, doesn't mean we have to be. I am fine knowing what ppl think that something is, but I enjoy knowing the history and true meaning behind things too.

We get so used to labelling it wrong, that it has become almost second nature. That's fine. But at least now you guys know the history behind it.

Well for what it's worth thanks guys for the 411. I enjoy reading information that's educational about my culture.
It's all work in progress and it's interesting to see others opinion and how they would label Trini To the Bone. Rhythemwize interesting cuz I also would "define/classify" it as calypsoca as well. For the very same reasons that you mentioned.

__________________
Urges Caribbean Americans and immigrants to stand up and be counted in Census 2010. Over $35 billion in federal dollars is going to be decided if its allocated into Caribbean communities and media houses by the government from the results. So make sure to write in your birth place of origin under questions #8 and #9 of the Census form. Email me for more information on helping this process to get us truly respected, counted and empowered.

Boss you have your view and I have mine and I dare you or anyone else in here to discredit the logic behind my view on this issue. In Barbados people see things differently and that becomes even more apparent since many Trinis are more likely to call Gabby's Hit It soca. In Trini you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that you can tell about going to a calypso show and think they'll believe it is soca oriented. The minute you say calyso they know they goin spectacular forum and Sparrows Hideaway (daiz if it still ha ting dey) and any other of the various calypso tents.

I gave the defination of genre so then we decide to get technical citing a minority of our music that falls directly in between both genres. In all aspects of music we cand find songs that fit into more than one genre. Think about Bunji - More life and Square one on the same riddim (sounds like some serious conscious reggae to me) Machel Big Phat Fish (Some say reggae some say soca. Who's wrong?) Rupee DTDT, Skin to Skin and even Tempted to Touch all sound like RnB, Reggae and Soca.

My last Carnival in Trinidad (2000) on more than one occassion I overheard young and older people complain (when they heard such songs as Treason - On the Promenade, Bunji Break Away, Genral Grant - Sticks and Stones among others) "why dem DJs playin dis setta reggae an is carnival." Maybe Trixx shoulda be there to tell them daiz calypso just a different type Trini to De Bone and Soca Train are examples of those that fall in between Soca and Calypso. How many of these types of songs can we name out of the hundreds of soca and calypso songs that are released on a yearly basis? If allyuh willin to be stuck in neutral then that is allyuh perogative but I see it different and articles from the eighties and seventies cannot change that. It is not as if I am unfamiliar with all these articles and the history of our music. I am fully aware, but I am willing to extend some thought and logic to it. I think Jandy used the most fitting example with the WO MAN analogy. Its as if something can't spin from something else and have its own identity.

Me and you most timees dont see eye to eye but well said breds!

guess it have a first time fuh everything

Fact is fact, opinion is opinion..I gave an article, as well as several other ppl explaining the development of Soca. If you want to say you consider it 2 different things, fine.. but don't tell me it definitely is..cause it isn't.


all music spun out of something else...

As far as the mixing of music, it is apparent that it happens.. but if Sean Paul sings a rap song, it is a rap song...if he sings a reggae song it is a reggae song...same thing with our music...If they sing a Calypso, it is a Calypso..Whether it be soca, Rapso, and all the other styles that make up Calypso music...They aren't 2 different things.

There is Rock, Alternative Rock, Heavy Metal Rock...but in the end..it is all Rock...That is my one and only point.

All the info you cite has yet to disprove my logical assesment. Tackle disproving my "opinion" and then we could talk otherwise yuh jus wastin time. How current are your sources? When were they first published? When were the last updated?

BTW Sean Paul Rap?

All da rock talk an yuh still missin de point. If you dissect all the rock types you will find many elements common to all.

Food for thought: did Christopher Columbus discover or rediscover the various Continents and Islands of the world? This will clarify a few things for me.

BTW check out what I found on yahoo. A comlete list of genres. Funny I don't see your rock subcategories there.


Watch him tell mih that whoever came up with that is probably american and doh kno what they talkin about

Of course you don't see them under different categories..That is my point....Do you see Calypso and Soca under different categories..

Yes rock has common elements...I guess you telling me Soca and Calypso don't?

We all know about Columbus...But if you are suggesting that these articles are a rediscovery of that, then I don't think that point is of any use to you. Unless you can disprove that Soca was develped as its own music..and that their is a completely different composition, instruments and arrangement..then your opinion does not dissect the info that anyone in this post provided to the point that I am willing to consider it as true.

But we could argue this until we dead...Your opinion is your opinion, my facts are my facts.

And to add to this conversation..I am very upset with you..We have had some good debates in the past...But how you gonna provide a link that proves my point. Please check your listings under Carribbean that provides links to Soca and Calypso as genres, but has Swallow as a Soca artist.....

You said it urself...It was developed by Americans who don't know better.

Thus my point that we should be the most informed and careful with our words when it comes to our culture and music.